What's wrong with a camelback
08-29-08, 07:19 PM
#101
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"Plus, some of us have decent carriers (Verizon) and don't want to pay the ridiculous price for a non-warranty unlocked. "
That's actually pretty hilarious. The iPhone is a GSM device. Verizon is a CDMA carrier. That's a bit like filling up your regular car with diesel. It doesn't exactly work. The iPhone is completely and utterly incompatible with the Verizon network.
That's actually pretty hilarious. The iPhone is a GSM device. Verizon is a CDMA carrier. That's a bit like filling up your regular car with diesel. It doesn't exactly work. The iPhone is completely and utterly incompatible with the Verizon network.
08-29-08, 07:20 PM
#102
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I have nasal problems and as such turn into a mouthbreather sometimes on my rides. As such I drink a fair bit. I wear my Camelbak, a 2 liter model, and I put a few useful items in it as well.
I don't care what other roadies, especially on the internet, might say or think about it. I need the damned water and it'll be cold day in hell before I care more about appearances than whether or not I survive the damned ride.
I don't care what other roadies, especially on the internet, might say or think about it. I need the damned water and it'll be cold day in hell before I care more about appearances than whether or not I survive the damned ride.
08-29-08, 07:31 PM
#103
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Oh man! you got yer ride all tuned and trimmed to do some serious gravity surfing and now you wanna alter the centre of gravity by putting 2+ lbs of weight just about as far off the ground as possible?
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
08-29-08, 08:20 PM
#104
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Oh man! you got yer ride all tuned and trimmed to do some serious gravity surfing and now you wanna alter the centre of gravity by putting 2+ lbs of weight just about as far off the ground as possible?
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
08-29-08, 08:38 PM
#105
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Oh man! you got yer ride all tuned and trimmed to do some serious gravity surfing and now you wanna alter the centre of gravity by putting 2+ lbs of weight just about as far off the ground as possible?
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
Not such a big deal on a MTB - where you more wrestle gravity than surf it - onacounna they got big tires and shocks, i.e things designed to dampen and stabilize sudden shifts in gravity.
You, though, are going downhill at 45kph+ carving out precise turns through switch-backs. You lean just at the right insta-second before the apex and a mili-second or so later 2 pounds of water sloshes over towards the apex. DUDE you just lost yer line, if yer lucky yer still upright.
Moreover it's difficult to judge the right amount of lean onacounna yer CG has changed significantly since the last descent cause you drank half the weight on yer back since then.
Most important - it's an energy drain. Don't forget a good deal of effort and energy goes into keeping the bike upright. Yer body acts as a pendulum - making hundreds of subtle swings to counterbalance and leverage the bike up every minute.
Think of a piano metronome - which takes less energy? Is it the slow beat, where the weight is at the top of the pendulum and travels back n forth a distance of 5 cm? Is it the fast beat, where the weight is closest to the fulcrum and travels 5mm? Of course it's the fast one - that's why it's faster.
At a cadence of 90 rpm yer making at least 180 adjustments per minute. Swinging 2 lbs of H2O 5 ft or so from the ground takes more energy than swinging it 2 1/2 ft from the ground because it's lateral movement is half that of on the back. All that extra energy adds up to a real drain over an hour or two. Might as well throw away yer kit, throw on a floppy hockey jersey and ride straight into a headwind!
I did a multi day tour with a small woman who wore a backpack that was at least 12 pounds, and she kicked ass.
You are really exaggerating the effect. At most, it's uncomfortable, maybe a little hot. It certainly doesn't do anything to handling, not that I've ever noticed.
I don't wear it unless I won't have anyplace to get water, or if I need to carry something. In those cases, it's convenient.
08-29-08, 09:07 PM
#106
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what about the fact that my bottle cage doesnt hold a map, wallet, phone, pump, tools, spare tube, lights, music, knife, sunglasses etc...? Its not just an easier way to get a drink, its also a backpack. Thats the other reason I use a camelbak, but then again I like exploring, Im sure many riders have predefined rides where they dont need all this gear.
wallet: Jersey pocket
phone: Jersey pocket
pump: Frame mount under bottle cage
tools: seat bag
spare tube: ditto
lights: mounted when needed
music: ipod shuffle clips anywhere on jersey
knife: really unnecessary unless I'm camping, then it goes in a Carradice
sunglasses: On face
Camelbacks are utterly and completely unnecessary and have drawbacks some of us find unacceptable. There's always another option which is, for must of us, better. Use your Camelback if you wish, but don't pretend a back bag is a necessity. It isn't.
08-29-08, 10:13 PM
#107
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Come on, man, it's not that big of a deal! Plus, most of us can keep our upper body pretty still while spinning along. I rode the Breathless Agony route with an 8 pound pack on my back, (I weighed it).This was a 112 mile route with 12,000 feet of gain.
I did a multi day tour with a small woman who wore a backpack that was at least 12 pounds, and she kicked ass.
You are really exaggerating the effect. At most, it's uncomfortable, maybe a little hot. It certainly doesn't do anything to handling, not that I've ever noticed.
I don't wear it unless I won't have anyplace to get water, or if I need to carry something. In those cases, it's convenient.
I did a multi day tour with a small woman who wore a backpack that was at least 12 pounds, and she kicked ass.
You are really exaggerating the effect. At most, it's uncomfortable, maybe a little hot. It certainly doesn't do anything to handling, not that I've ever noticed.
I don't wear it unless I won't have anyplace to get water, or if I need to carry something. In those cases, it's convenient.
My motto is " No Drag, No Lag, No Unwanted Flex or Frequency, No Dead Weight.
The fun of road cycling is speed, precision and efficiency - anything that detracts from that, no matter how minute, is a kill joy.
The Wright brothers understood -because they started as bike builders, that an extra 2 oz of cable, on its own, would have a very small affect on getting the plane airborne but if they let that slide then they might as well not replace the steel springs in the engine valves with aluminum - cause the extra weight, on its own - not such a big deal. But add it all up - an oz here an oz there , a little extra drag here, and they're in the midst of a feedback loop.
A little extra weight -> more fuel -> more weight -> bigger engine -> more weight -> more fuel -> larger wing surface ->more weight and so on
A little more effort maintaining balance -> more water to stay hydrated->more weight-> more effort to stay balanced. You might only burn a few 100 more calories and consume a few more oz of water but let that slide and you're likely less diligent about other inefficiencies ->more wasted energy.
Obviously it's a matter of balance and trade offs. I could ride a 14 lb bike but chances are, at my size, any effort saved by weight will be lost to lack of stiffness. If you don't have feeding stations or support vehicles it may very well be that its costs less in time and energy to go camel back than detour/stop and refill the bottles. Half the fun/secret of cycling is making the right trade offs but unless it is a matter of dehydration or a lengthy stop I would never consider a camel back.
08-29-08, 10:20 PM
#108
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This is an interesting point. So carrying an extra 100 oz of fluids means you have to drink more to carry the extra 100 oz of fluids. Hmmm.....
08-29-08, 10:29 PM
#109
08-29-08, 10:34 PM
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Or look at it another way - you can get from A to B on 2 inch tires but larger tire surface -> more friction -> more energy to go fast -> more food and water -> more weight-> more friction -> more energy required-> more fuel, etc. Unless you absolutely need the extra stability and dampening of the larger tire why put them on the bike?
08-29-08, 10:41 PM
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Nope, elemental physics. Air Canada just announced it was doing away with life jackets on all flights that didn't travel over the ocean ( seat cushions for floatation devices over lakes ). Why? each life vest only weighs a 1/2 lb. but x 100 seats = 50 pounds x 1000 flights = 50,000 lbs . It all works out to millions saved in fuel costs.
08-30-08, 09:22 AM
#114
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I have only been riding 4 months. I think going out and buying like 5 jersey's right away would have been the Fred thing to do. Plus, who REALLY wants those stupid tan lines. I just wear a sleeveless athletic shirt for the time being.
08-30-08, 02:40 PM
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Random sample from OC, Sat.morning:
275-300 roadies and, a grand total of three with Camelbacks.
A couple guys spotted w. full-on backpacks so I guess they might have a C.Back on too.
Why bother w. one riding near so many water stops?
275-300 roadies and, a grand total of three with Camelbacks.
A couple guys spotted w. full-on backpacks so I guess they might have a C.Back on too.
Why bother w. one riding near so many water stops?
08-30-08, 02:58 PM
#116
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I saw one today out of about 30 or so. He was apparently doing the same over and back I was doing but in the opposite direction, I saw him twice while I was descending and he was climbing (most people just to and up and back, so he was going farther than most). This is a hilly 50 or so miles over and back depending on where you start/finish, I do it in about 53 miles. I carry two bottles only and fill up twice at the only water stop on the route, so I drink 6 bottles total which is more than plenty. Guess he didn't know about that stop. The more arguments I hear the more convinced I become that there is almost always a better alternative. Going to try to find excuses to not use it on MTB rides (here in CO everyone wears one while on a MTB, thats always struck me as odd)
08-30-08, 03:00 PM
#117
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I use a CamelBak on every ride...
It has almost everything you need to fix a mechanical...
I even stuff a Topeka Road Morph pump in it...
Oh, and on a long ride I put some water in it...
I don't care if I am a Fred...
Nobody has laughed at me to my face...
It is all about the engine...
It has almost everything you need to fix a mechanical...
I even stuff a Topeka Road Morph pump in it...
Oh, and on a long ride I put some water in it...
I don't care if I am a Fred...
Nobody has laughed at me to my face...
It is all about the engine...
That's the same one I have.
If anyone has problems with water sloshing then just turn it upside down after you fill it up and suck out all the air...problem solved. I love having a camelbak on long rides and really love it in pacelines b/c I can't multitask for crap.
08-30-08, 03:25 PM
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Nope, elemental physics. Air Canada just announced it was doing away with life jackets on all flights that didn't travel over the ocean ( seat cushions for floatation devices over lakes ). Why? each life vest only weighs a 1/2 lb. but x 100 seats = 50 pounds x 1000 flights = 50,000 lbs . It all works out to millions saved in fuel costs.
Last edited by Skewer; 08-30-08 at 03:29 PM.
08-30-08, 06:07 PM
#119
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Since we are counting camelbaks spotted today, there was one on the morning group ride, two that I passed in the afternoon on a climb, and a guy with a backpack that looked like it could have been a camelbak-like device
08-30-08, 09:47 PM
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I wore mine today, the 70oz one. I was the only one wearing one out of about 15 riders on our 80+ mile ride in the mountains. I was also the slowest, heaviest, and Fredliest one. It was fargin hot for the last few hours and I came home 7 pounds lighter even though I tried to drink a lot.
09-01-08, 04:24 PM
#122
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No camelback for me. I've done rides with one and the weight on my shoulders and the heat that gets trapped is too much for me. I have also balked at the idea of carrying extra bottles on a climb, but I'm liking the extra bottles now. Definitely gives me a mental edge on a long, hot (106+ degrees) climb, knowing I have extra fluids. Of course, I couldn't resist the Tule River and skinny dipping for some extra cooling off on Saturday. 
Last edited by Brandy; 09-01-08 at 04:30 PM.
09-01-08, 05:08 PM
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So where was the surprise climbing ride? The Tule River?
09-01-08, 05:12 PM
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Sequoia National Forest, Giant Sequoia National Monument and Sequoia National Park. See a theme here? We rode out of Springville on Saturday, first climbing Balch Park Rd loop and then Hwy 190. Sunday we drove up to Three Rivers and climbed Mineral King Road. What an ass kicker! 
It was amazing. I am trying to label the pictures on flickr right now. More details to come.
We rode out of Springville on Saturday, first climbing Balch Park Rd loop and then Hwy 190. Sunday we drove up to Three Rivers and climbed Mineral King Road. What an ass kicker! It was amazing. I am trying to label the pictures on flickr right now. More details to come.
09-01-08, 05:12 PM
#125
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I put a water bottle in a jersey and didn't wear the camel back on a 68 mile ride and I felt better than the 52 mile ride I did last week with the camelback. BUT, I rode with someone this week, and I had gels and a clif bar and some dried fruit and gatorade and last week I only had regular H2O. so, in the end, I don't think it makes much of a difference.
