biffstephens

I think the Frame and fork runs ~2300? I have most everything else I need.

king-tony

Bought a new P2C frame last week for $1499. Pretty easy to find deals close to this.

ravenmore

Well - one thought I had is to sell a couple of my road bikes - currently have 3. Could sell 2 and put the $$$ towards the TT bike.

ridethecliche

Sell 1 if any. It's nice to have a spare.

You could get into a good position with a set forward post, and get aero bars+helmet+aero wheels to reap most of the benefits without getting a new frame.

jrennie

It can be done on the cheap. For the cost of a P2C frameset i just built up a P3 with an 808 front and disc and I'm still ahead of the frameset cost.

wirelessness

Almost all Triathlons prohibit drafting. That is why people use and aerodynamic Time Trial bike.

AssosMan

I have my eye on this one:

bostongarden

Just to give you an idea of some pricing I've seen (listed October 28, 2008), also here (P3 in 58 with SRAM Force/Rival, yup, all set up, not just the frameset) and here...just food for thought :-)

pawn

prohibit as in it's not allowed, or because people are getting out of the water at different times?

Also, if someone (such as myself) want to get into tri's but don't want to dedicate the money to a tt bike, what can I do to a road bike to make it more aero (I know wheels...) but is there like add ons for drop bars? Basically on the cheap is what I'm looking at (cheap is figurative.)

Flak

Plus the position they put you in allows you to run off the bike easier.

SegFault

Read the thread linked here.

In particular:

Clip-on aero bars ($60-$120) that work with your existing drop bars and an aero helmet ($150 or so) plus a good body position will get you most of the aero benefits without the big price tags of dedicated TT bikes.

ravenmore

One big thing is getting a TT helmet. I've been told a good helmet will make more of a difference on your time than a deep aero wheelset. Also, not wearing gloves supposedly can shave off seconds. Also things that can get you into a more aero position like a set forward seatpost and aerobars would help.

Still, another pretty significant advantage can be had in the shape and geometry of a proper TT frame.

Look, I know I'm probably not going to be in a TT against Lance (although who knows if he does Gruene next year), but it would be really cool to maybe do a TTT with Erick and some of the other guys if I could get good enough at it. It'd really be nice to have to equipment to bring my 'A' game.

Bah, damn this food, clothing, and shelter nonsense.

mattm

wish i'd read that before i tried my first tt, because 15-17 would have helped:

Business810

Public service announcement: https://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A1367 $22 aerobars, only 2 left in stock though (as is everything at PBK).

blavelle

as said before I'd reccomend a P2C. Now is an especially good time to pick one up because of the 2008 closeouts.

Val23708

wirelessness

Yeah, it is prohibited by the rules to draft and they have monitors on the course looking for people who draft and you can get DQ'd. Plus it's harder because the start is staggered because people come out of the water at different times as well.

Not to divert the topic of this thread but it should be noted that there is a lot more to getting into an aerodynamic position than just throwing on some clip-on aerobars. TT bikes have different geometry than road bikes which enable you to get into the correct riding position while tucked. I am far from an expert on fitment and there are already tons of posts here about this subject, just be aware of this. Basically, if you install clip-on aerobars and it throws off your bikes proper fit characteristics to ride in that position you could end up going slower or worse get injured.

BananaTugger

For a couple of thousand dollars more.

Unless you think they are the same. If you do, then you're wrong.

Brian Ratliff

Unless and until you get into a windtunnel, the major changes are simple. Simply put, your bars are lower and closer to you and your saddle is further forward to compensate for the bar position. You end up with more weight on the front wheel and a lower, more aerodynamic position.

I'm in the process of building a TT bike on an old road frame principally so I can adjust it so the saddle is further forward from my road bike. I had been using aerobars on my roadbike, but it was uncomfortable to stay in an aero position for very long because I didn't want to mess with my saddle position. I want to race longer TT's next season, so getting the correct position on my bike is going to be much more important.

IMO, amateur racers put too much stock in all the fancy TT stuff like fancy aero frames and disk wheels. My TT bike will have an old steel frame (non-aero) and standard 32 spoked tubular wheels. The two most important things to have to be competitive in TT's is a good aero body position and a steady diet of threshold intervals. Even the helmet is an order of magnitude less important than the body position on the bike, and $1500 on a coach is money better spent than on a disk wheel.

asgelle

256 Verheul/Coggan 90 TM90 00:46:47.72 <-- National Record
255 Corcoran/Fry 94 TM90 00:46:57.44 <-- Used a spoked rear wheel, no shoe covers, ...

Knowing what we know, why anyone with a choice would use tubulars in a TT is beyond me.

Wrench_Monkey

+1 on the Jamis Trilogy, excellent bike for the price. And the R wheel cutout looks odd in that pic because you can't see how the frame is concave on the trailing edge to accommodate the wheel. Also, horizontal dropouts, so the positioning is adjustable.

Brian Ratliff

So I don't have to risk hoofing miles on foot on an out and back course if I have a flat. No wheel support in a TT and cars can't drive the course. I don't generally have a support staff at my races I can call upon, though for a beer, I might be able to get a teammate to help me once the race is over. If the rolling resistance increase in tubulars is real (I'm skeptical, and if it is, it's maybe a 30% increase in what is already a very small number), it's a dis-benefit I'm willing to risk to avoid a long walk in cleats.

As for the beginning part... I have no idea the point you are trying to make come across. Surely you aren't trying to say that a 10 second difference in times between two distinctly different tandem teams (with different people on them!) on an open TT course over 47 minutes is any sort of argument that an amateur racer will get any bang for their buck on all this expensive aero stuff. No argument that being more aero helps; rather, that your 10 second difference in time, even if it was due solely to the spoked rear wheel and no shoe covers, is merely 1/3 of 1% difference in time. I'm sure it was because of the shoe covers...

...I mean, maybe there was a hill on the course and the weight disadvantage of a disk wheel made a vastly superior team win by a mere 10 seconds. Maybe team 255 was actually the superior team (despite their equipment disadvantage) but one of the guys dehydrated that day and didn't perform as he expected. Surely you aren't singling out 2 factors out of the hundreds or thousands that lead to a time in the 40km as the "true cause" that team 255 didn't beat 256 to make the argument that it's worth spending $1000s on aero equipment to compete in an amateur TT.

asgelle

You really need to have a talk with your local promoters. Having been involved in promoting a few time trials, I know we always monitor finishers and never just abandon someone on the course.

I think it's pretty self-evident. Two amateur riders missed setting a national record by 10 seconds and it's clear that they gave up much more time than that due to their equipment choice. If they had put more stock in all the fancy TT stuff like fancy aero frames and disk wheels (to use your words), riding the same race they did, they would be the current record holders.

Brian Ratliff

Never said I'd be abandoned... just that it'd be a walk and/or a wait until the end of the race. Not to mention that in a stage race, if I didn't finish, I wouldn't be able to start the next stage. They won't be driving a car out to find me until the end of the race, unless I was reported injured.

I doubt it's clear that they gave up 10+ seconds due to their choice of gear. It's also not clear that, having all the gear, that they'd get their 10+ seconds back. If you have hundreds of variables to play with, there is a good chance that many of them cancel out others of them. A disk wheel is much heavier than a wire spoked wheel - a small hill will likely cancel out any aero benefits, and a cross wind assures that you lose time with more energy spent controlling your bike against a sailing wheel. Shoe covers make your feet hotter, which affects performance (believe you me, hot foot is worth much more than 10 seconds over the course of an hour) - also, if your shoe is found to be too loose or too tight over the course, it is very difficult to adjust - every little mal-adjustment in clothing or equipment is worth time.

And that is just to name a couple of the many tradeoffs. More than likely, team 255 is kicking themselves for the corner they slightly overshot or the small mis-timing of a standing motion between the two of them that cost them seconds here and there over the course. Perhaps they spun out their gearing going down a hill or downwind on the flat and are kicking themselves for not having a 56 or higher tooth front ring. Or perhaps, in an effort to maintain that aero tuck for the last 20 minutes, one of the guys left too much water in his bottle and got a dehydrated. Or maybe they misjudged the pace a bit and went out too fast.

In other words, I'll bet they are fretting over their mistakes made as racers more than their lack of equipment.

asgelle

It is to me and anyone who's played around with analyticcycling.com, as it's clear you have not. To cite just one example, for riders of these guy's power, it takes about a 6% grade for a spoked wheel to be faster than a disk and that's just for the climb. So as long as the climb is below that grade, the disk is faster no matter how long it is. For steeper climbs, the disk is slower on the ascent, but that time will be recovered over the rest of the course. It should also be clear that since a national record was set on the course, it is unlikely there are any significant hills.

You talk as though it's easier to correct riding errors than change equipment. That has not been my experience. I know I've never ridden a perfect race and it's foolish to think I will. On the other hand, the drag reduction and associated time savings from better equipment choices are always there. I may not take a corner perfectly or ride the ideal pacing strategy, but the drag reduction from a better wheel or helmet is always there increasing my speed, lowering my time.