don d.

These are a couple of links to information about manufacturers recommended applications for their tubing. Read the fine print carefully.

https://mywebpages.comcast.net/bobequ...mbus-tubes.jpg

https://www.henryjames.com/ttkits.html

SchreiberBike

This is, as you can see from the sites you referenced, a very complicated issue. I'm in no position to advise. Who is building the frame? If this person is experienced, I'd work talk with them. For a framebuilder, there is a lot of benefit in using a tubeset they are familiar with.

If you are building it yourself, read through the archives of the Framebuilder's Forum Lilnk. After you've read up on what others are using, you can ask some questions there.

Have fun

Thylacine

Don,

You're seriously living in the past here man. All those Columbus sets on the first link are all discontinued, and the recommendations on HJs site are really just for use as a guide only.
Any decent framebuilder will be able to pick a tube spec for a customer, taking into consideration all aspects of that particular customers requirements. I'm not against education - i think it's great that people want to know about tubing specs - but part of what separates custom builders is their ability to blend a tube spec to suit your needs. Good custom builders also rarely limit themselves to one tubing manufacturer, often using a mix of Columbus, Dedacciai, True Temper etc.

Part of the custom experience is doing your homework, picking a builder you think best identifies your requirements and who can best fulfil them. I think if you aproached a builder, then questioned their spec based on a couple of internet resourses you found....let's just say you wouldn't be winning any friends *laugh*.

As for off the shelf steel frames, i think they'd 90% of the time spec for the biggest size and then use the same tubeset for all sizes. At the very most, they might downsize the top or down tubes, but I'd doubt there'd be much more to it than that.

don d.

The info posted is for comparitive purposes. It's not intended to encourage anyone to walk into a custom frame builders shop and tell the frame builder what to do.

The info about Columbus contains numerous current tubesets from them including their Nivachrome steel. It is not ancient history to any informed person. It is for comparative purposes.

The info about True Temper tubesets is current info on the Henry James website now. The tubesets listed are the tubesets True Temper is providing now to the frame building industry, including info about the tubes you have in your own frame!

It is posted by Henry James as a guide. For example, as a guide he recommends that 190lbs is the maximum weight his heaviest guage OX tubeset will support and still provide the handling and ride characteristics it was designed for. Obviously this is not a hard number. But it provides a point of reference for individuals in determining if it is suited to their needs. To go beyond this recommendation by say 10% would probably be well within the design parameters. But to go beyond it by 50% might be considered irresponsible. And OX is some of the strongest tubing on the market which iis why I chose to post it's recommended design parameters.

When I read Henry James recommendations about the design limitations of the steels he sells, I consider it to be some of the most reliable info in the industry. For those who are not familiar with Henry James, he is an innovator, designer, and supplier of lugs, tubes, and frame building supplies to the industry.

Your point about manufacturers using the tubing spec'd for the biggest size in all sizes is simply not true. In most cases, it is exactly the opposite.

The idea here was to give people interested in objective info some reference point to use in understanding the design limitations of some of the more current steels and to help people in making choices about the steels that might best suit their needs.

Personally, I wouldn't have to question a framebuilder about their specs since I have worked in a frame shop and am quite familiar with the whole process. I currently subscribe to and participate in the Framebuilders Forum and have read your posts there. You have no doubt read some of mine.

Once again, this info is more for the individual trying to make educated, informed choices about the different materials available on the market. More info is better, assuming intelligent people are reading or using it.

531Aussie

come on, Thylo! Where's ya spunk?

Thylacine

*laugh* Okay, so apparently I'm not an 'informed person'. Interesting!

Okay, I don't see Spirit, Life, UltraFoco, Foco, Zona, Thron......none of those tubes are in that reference that you cite. These are the modern Columbus tubesets I know of and use for TIG welding. Nivachrom is a Zona level tube, on your list there is no thermophillic or air hardening 'Thermacrom' steels such as Foco. The HJ list is what he sells and I've used some TT tubes on some frames, including my own Tephra which is my first go using OX Platinum. I weight 205 so I expect it to fold under me any second now *laugh* ( According to the HJ website ). Come on man! If you're going to post web references, you can do better than that!

Anyway, it might be better to have a discussion on the different types of steels and what parameters dictate tubing selection? Seeing we both pretend to be 'informed intelligent purveyors' of all things steely? Okay okay, you can pretend, I'll provide the dancing monkeys.

don d.

Ha, Ha. Glad to hear you've had you're first go at OX, or should I say, your first go at having your "fabricator", the guy who builds your frames, build with OX. There's a big difference between doing it yourself and having it done for you, isn't there. Sounds like your getting some experience though. Let me know when you've had your first go at building a frame yourself. Maybe you should get your fabricator to post here for you:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...249#post401249

Of course, since XACD(in China) is building your forks for you, are they doing your frames?

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...855#post391855

For those interested in Thylacine's knowledge or lack thereof about design, read here:

https://www.bikeforums,net/showthread...930#post391855



I think the parameters that dictate selection of steel tubing are well spelled out in the comments at both the sites I posted in my original post above. Anyone who wants to learn can read them.

Once again, the info posted in my original post is not my info but info and comments that Columbus and Henry James have made regarding the use and applications of steel. They are both designers with the highest reputation. They stand on their own merit.


By the way, anyone who wants can go to www.bikelist.org and read Thylacine's flames on the Framebuilders list by typing Thylacine into the archive search engine. Enjoy. Seems the best framebuilders in the world don't have much credibility with him either.

Enjoy the dancing monkey.

531Aussie

I'm gunna exploit this muscle flexin'.....

Is this true: "ride comfort is engineered more with geometry and tires than any difference between aluminum and steel"..........? It's from this web-site: https://www.chainreaction.com/steelisreal.htm

Is this why my 1999 (non sloping) 57cm Specialized Allez Comp with an aluminium fork and steel steerer rides like a dream, yet my 58cm Dedacciai 7003 (also with aluminium fork & steel steerer) detaches my retinas and loosens my freckles?

I swapped the forks around: no difference

RacerX

I cannot believe that statement. I have ridden enough bicycles with the same wheelsets to know that isn't true.

You can feel the difference without ever looking at down at the frame what it's made out of.
As for geometry, I certainly am not sure because it is very hard to find a steel bike and aluminum bike with the exact same geometry. That would mean one manufacturer that makes a steel and aluminum version of the same bike, without any geometry change. All the bike I have ridden within these parameters have been of different makes or geometry.

I have ridden a Kelly road bike made of True Temper OX Platinum and it was a beautifully riding steel frame. I like the steel and the maker. So I have praise for True Temper OXP now. I have considered spending my own money on one and I rarely consider that.

SchreiberBike

I'm no expert, but since I'm quite sure some of the "experts" are wrong, I'll post my opinion here.

It's really hard to isolate the effects of 1) geometry, 2) frame material and 3) tubing dimensions. For example, I know from experience that you can make aluminum frames that are whippy and flexible, or bone-shaking-stiff, or a pretty darn good compromise (Alan, early Cannondale, modern Cannondale).

You can do the same with steel. Probably also with carbon fiber or titanium. The shape and size of the tubes, the thickness of the tubes, the length of the butts all have an affect. The geometry, that is the length and positions of the tubes, has a big impact too.

I'd love to spend huge bucks to do double blind testing of a variety of frames, preferably custom made so as to isolate as many variables as possible, but I don't have the money or the time, and I don't know of anyone else who has done it either; although many have talked about it.

In conclusion, I'd say that we know less than we think we know and we tend to draw conclusions based on small samples and our prejudices.

don d.

This is all very true. Tube wall thicknesses, butt lengths, and steel composition all combine to make a tubing that is suitable for one rider but unsuitable for another. That is why comparison is important.

For example, in the link above, Columbus describes their MAX tubeset to be an oversize, geometrically enhanced tubeset designed for the most extreme loads in competition and riding. This is made of heat treated Nivachrome steel and is strengthened by air hardening during the cooling process after welding or brazing. A review of the wall thicknesses shows it to be .8mm thick at the butts and .5-.7 mm thick in the mid-sections. Someone who was a larger rider can use this as a point of reference, not a sole determinant, when trying to decide what kind of steel would be suited to their needs. This tubeset is currently available in numerous stock frames including the Eddy Merckx MX Leader and is especially suited to stouter, stronger riders-Clydesdales if you will, but builds up into what would probably be to stiff a frame in the smaller sizes for most smaller riders.

A quick review of the Henry James recommendations for his O/S Stiff road tubeset which he suggest for riders up to 200lbs, shows that the main frames tubes are oversize, up to 31.8mm dia., with .8mm thickness at the butts and .5 in the mid-section. www.henryjames.com/butt.html .

Coincidentally or not, these are very similar diameters and wall thicknesses as the Columbus Max tubeset.

Can we learn anything from this info? I certainly hope so.

Phatman

this is gonna get ugly.

don d, I think that max is an old tubeset. That mx leader that merkx makes is like 6 pounds. I'm almost certain it has been around for a looooong time.

don d.

It sure is an older tubeset and it has been around awhile. But it is still a current tubeset of Columbus because it has a niche to fill. And it is one of the first of the heat-treated, Nivachrome steels from Columbus. However it is no coincident that this older, proven tubeset has a similar weight to the newer, super sophisticated O/S OX Platinum that Henry James recommends for heavier riders. Why? Because they have similar tube diameters and wall thickness.

If you're going to build a tubing to accomodate alot of weight or extreme use, it's going to be relatively heavy. The description next to the Columbus Max tubeset says just that.

Someone who wants to learn can read each description for each tubeset listed by Columbus or True Temper, look at the tube guages, butts, etc... and learn something about how different tubes are suited to different needs.

531Aussie

Speaking of 'bricks', our 2nd hand shop has a Colnago with a Columbus Altain sticker (sorry; 'decal') on it, and it is an absolute ANVIL! What is 'Columbus Altain'? I haven't weighed it, but it's gotta be 7 or 8 lbs.

531Aussie

What about these quotes from https://www.chainreaction.com/steelisreal.htm :

"a very high quality steel frame might have a lifespan of typically 35-50,000 miles. At that point, it's very common for a steel frame to fail..........."

"They will often last longer than the 35-50k miles, and sometimes considerably less. 35-50k miles is quite a few miles in my book! But it's not forever."

True? Kinda true? Or complete bollocks?

Thylacine

Don, you're level of unprofessionalism is pretty cringeworthy. I think your personal attacks, lack of understanding of modern tubesets and childish taunts - not to mention a lack of a sense of humour is pretty unconscionable.

Now as for the slander you've directed towards me and my company, I'm just going to give you the answers to the assumptions you've made, and hopefully we can leave it at that and get on with the constructive discussion for the rest of the members of this board who come her for good modern information, not to hear your personal slandering.

I run Thylacine Cycles. I'm the boss. I pay a guy to weld my frames. I also pay another guy to paint them. I also pay another guy to print the decals. I'm not pretending to be some black art artisan framebuilder - I'm an Industrial Designer who has done work for many cycling and non cycling companies. If you think I'm a no tallent a$$hole, I invite you to have a look at my second ever bike I ever built ( see the FS bike in https://www.thylacinecycles.com/gallery ). I also invite you to look extensively in Tiogas catalog as I have been used by them since 1996 as a Design Consultant.

It's true, I bought a handful of XCAD forks because people were asking for light rigid forks for mostly singlespeeding, but I couldn't make them at a cost effective pricepoint. I don't really like them, so I'm not pushing them despite being aproached by them to design some components. They do not make my frames. I'm well respected on the list, despite only having been on it for a year and a half and not being afraid to have a personality. I regularly chat via e-mail with Richard Sachs, Freddy Parr, Don Ferris etc, and seem to have a good raport with them.

Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. If you have any problems with me or my company or opinions, you can email me at info@thylacinecycles.com. Otherwise, keep your slander to yourself. It might be constructive for you to develop a sense of humour and not be so angered by people who have a different opinion to you.

On with the show.

don d.

Dont you mean...un-conscionable(sic)? I do like the cringeworthy although a "dude" after it would more suit your Bill and Ted image.

Whatever.

Squeeze the bulb a little harder.

Thylacine

Thanks for the spell check. Much obliged.

IMHO, selecting a tubeset has more to do with your budget and the particular preferences of the chosen builder rather than what some wholesaler tells the buying public. It's a question that is really larger than pointing at any particular manufacturers or wholesalers website. Some steels such as S3 have specific manufacturer weight limits, but apart from that, a builder can really make a material such as Foco suit any purpose. Again, things get even more complex if you have a builder that is happy to mix tubing from different companies.

531Aussie

No, no, please don't stop -- I'm lovin' it.

don d.

Another link to information about one of the tubesets off the Columbus chart. Thylacine says this is discontinued,
but here's a another builder who, along with Eddy Merckx, uses it now. Anvil Bikeworks comments:

www.anvilbikes.com/story.php?news_ID=18&catID=3

don d.

This link includes descriptive info about tubesets by Reynolds, Dedacciai, Columbus, True Temper, and Easton. The descriptions will help the layman get a better understanding of the applications of the various tubesets. Carl Strong is an actual framebuilder, not an outsourcer, and considers this type of info valuable enough to post for his customers on his website.

https://www.strongframes.com/index.ph...%20Geek%20Love

531Aussie

Thanks. I really enjoyed reading the FAQ/FMS section of Henry James' site: https://www.henryjames.com/faq.html . After all these years I didn't even know that a traditional, lugged steel frame is not welded in the same way as non-lugged frames are (hope I got that right). After reading his stuff I'm sorta thinkin' I'll stick to my 'vintage' 1990(ish) 531c Raleigh (weighs a nice 1840g at 58cm) instead of mashing some 1400g 'lugless' UltraFoco thingy.

531Aussie

While I'm at it......why is most of all the old Columbus stuff much heavier than 531?
A "guy told me", for example, that SLX was only intended for riding on the cobbles.
???

don d.

Glad you enjoyed that site. Henry is obviously biased toward steel, but he knows as much if not more about it than anyone in the industry.

bg4533

The 2003 Specialized Allez Elite and Specialized Allez Elite Cro-Mo have identical geometries and and with the exception of frame material and crankset are identical. The Elite is made of Al and the Elite Cro-Mo is made of Columbus Foco Cro-Mo.

I rode both of these bikes and I saw a noticable difference, it was small but there. The aluminum frame always seemed to have a slight "buzz" while the steel version did not. I ended up buying the Elite Cro-Mo and am very happy with the bike and ride qualities.