Week 1

Early Sunday Morning.
Big Parking Lot (preferably a business park over a mall)
4 points on the pavement (cones or paint marks or whatever)
Practice over and over, increasing your pace as you go.
In 1 hour, you'll be a lot more confident

Week 2

Take 2-4 friends with you
Do the same thing with friends
In 1 hour, you're nearly ready for a crit.... minus the conditioning.

Get good tires, a good tire will inspire confidence. A tire that's not all that sticky will undermine your confidence as you feel your bike sliding/wiggling beneath you. Any good racing tire will do. We have good ones, as do all the major tire mfg cos.

cycocommute...

The writings of the inexperienced. I can always tell someone who has no motorcycle experience and really doesn't understand the steering process. The idea that you can "initiate" a turn and somehow keep it going without continuous countersteering is totally wrong and the cause of plenty of motorcycle accidents. The SAME is true of a bicycle. You can't apply pressure with your foot and expect the bike (or motorcycle) to keep turning. It just won't happen.

Nice picture of the turn, but to make that bike lean you have to countersteer by continually pushing on the inside of the bar. Notice how that inside arm appears straighter because that is the one doing the work, not the outside arm. Try a 180 degree hairpin turn at 35-40 mph on a mountain descent sometime - I've down thousands of them in the last six years. If you quit pushing on the right to keep the bike turning to the right, it will straighten up immediately and quit turning. This is more pronounced on bike with more steering trail, like a Colango.

You DON'T have to quit pedaling if the corner has a large enough radius and/or a little banking. You also don't need to push on that outside pedal to make the corner successfully. You could execute a high speed turn with both pedals horizontal. The only thing you must do is not hit the inside pedal on the ground. Of course, it's best to turn as shown in your picture.

Uh no. On a motorcyle, one would be pulling on the outer bar and pushing on the inner bar to keep the steering ained out of the corner to keep the bike leaned over. Granted, you don't do as much countersteering as it takes to lean the bike over, but there's still some countersteering going on in steady-state cornering. Try riding a motorcycle sometime and do the one-handed exercises I posted above. In fact, riding a motorcycle really helps one learn to corner on a bicycle because the countersteering forces on the bars are so much more obvious and larger.

http://www.motorcyclejazz.com/images/mhhgsxr400.JPG
http://www.motorcyclejazz.com/motorcycle_physics.htm

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...pictures-1.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...pictures-1.jpg

http://www.daytonamotorcycletraining...ersteering.gif
http://www.daytonamotorcycletraining...r-steering.htm

If you look closely at the above photos, you'll see that the front-wheel is not in-line with the rear, it's aiming out towards the outside of the corner.

+1. Worry about all the other advice AFTER you've mastered this. You can practice looking through turns at slow speed in a parking lot. As you approach an object in the lot, turn your head and look at the spot where you want to be once the turn is complete.

Look at his head and eyes. His head is turned in the direction he wants to go and he is looking far up the road. This is the most important part of turning at speed.

Yeah, get Keith Code's book. One of the important techniques is to keep your eyes level with the ground and look where you want to go. The level eyes alllow your ears to accurately measure the lean-angle and cornering forces.

[QUOTE=DannoXYZ;8961745]Uh no. On a motorcyle, one would be pulling on the outer bar and pushing on the inner bar to keep the steering ained out of the corner to keep the bike leaned over. Granted, you don't do as much countersteering as it takes to lean the bike over, but there's still some countersteering going on in steady-state cornering. Try riding a motorcycle sometime and do the one-handed exercises I posted above. In fact, riding a motorcycle really helps one learn to corner on a bicycle because the countersteering forces on the bars are so much more obvious and larger.


How right you are. I didn't catch that big mistake in cycocommute's post. At least he admits that he's never ridden a motorcycle. It really does make you a better bicycle rider, at least if you ride routes with technical, high speed descents, like I do.

It's amazing how many people manage to corner a bicycle successfully when they really don't understand the process. I got a huge education as soon as I started descending mountains with many corners. On one of my very early descents, I followed a young racer through the curves and didn't fall far behind, but it was scary at the time. I went over the centerline a couple of times in the first few weeks, but I hadn't taken motorcycle training then. The motorcyle training really was helpful.

Made a point to do this on my commute this afternoon, could tell a difference in my riding right away. :thumb:

I can't believe I am actually looking forward to spending Sunday morning in a parking lot.

That's because you genuinely want to improve and are willing to do the little things needed to get there.

incorrect

I tried out countersteering tonight on my ride: the turn-in felt much more responsive and I was more comfortable with some speed in the turns. When you work up to higher speeds, are there any indicators that you're getting close to the traction limit of the tires? The tires on my car are much easier to read since they change their sound quite a bit. Also, is the drop-off in traction when you cross that line pretty much a slip and fall scenario? or is there something i should think about doing to recover? (similar to countersteering in a car to correct a spin)

^^^^

I've never noticed any indicator just before any of my slideouts. One of the risks of cornering at high speed is that you have no idea how much traction the road surface provides. My slideouts have always been caused by water, sand or oil. I approached a left hand intersection once, just as the light turned green and went into a corner at about 25 mph, only to see a wet streak all across the intersection - far too late to do anything about it. It turned out to be hydraulic oil of some sort - gallons of it spilled by some commercial vehicle. Needless to say, I slid a across two lanes before stopping near the curb.

I've been surprised once on a mountain descent, when there was enough sand on the road to lower the traction far more than expected. There was not any sand build-up, but there was just enough to reduce traction. I remember nothing about the slide but getting up with a shredded jersery, broken helmet and plenty of road rash. Motorcycle riders fall victim to this same problem on occasion. Even though they have the skills to lean the motorcycle over like the racing pictures shown, they forget that a mountain road is not a carefully cleaned race track. If you try that type of cornering very often on a real mountain road, it won't be long before you slide out.

Heh. Push right to go right. Ready-Aim-Fire.

Some pointers- this prolly repeats some of teh stuff above but serves as a nice little summary.

eyes- as you enter the turn- look toward the exit or as far ahead as possible. You look somewhere else- that's where you are going to go. e.g. don't look at the grill of the oncoming car.

Scan ahead for debris and other road irregularities so you have time to adjust.

countersteer- here's an explanation.

push down harder on the inside bar to execute a tighter turn. so... if you're going right crank down on the right side of the bar.

do your speed changes before you enter the turn. try to avoid braking in the midst of the turn. can be done, but you have less traction in a turn.

weight the outside pedal, lift your butt of the saddle just a bit.

hands in the drops. not on the hoods.

stay relaxed. keep those elbows nice and loose. drop that inside elbow.

don't panic.

practice, practice, practice.

This covers some of the things mentioned above.

And if you really want to improve your cornering... buy a motorcycle (and of course take the safety class). Nothing like going through tight curves at 50 mph. :D

I assure you that I am not inexperienced when it comes to riding a bicycle...which just so happens to be what we discuss here. I've ridden some motorcycles in the past but they just happen to not be something I'm that interested in.

From one of DannoXYZ's links

The same principle applies to bicycles. Once in the turn however, you depend on the friction on the tire patch to pull you around the corner. You keep harping on things that you don't seem to understand. I did not say that you should "apply pressure with your foot and expect the bike (or motorcycle) to keep turning". That is part of the equation. The other part is what you do with your hands and upper body and...yes...your head.

The reason you might need to counter steer more with a motorcycle in a corner is that you can overwhelm the friction on the contact patch much easier in a corner. Look at DannoXYZ's pictures again.

http://www.motorcyclejazz.com/images/mhhgsxr400.JPG

In this one the wheels appear to me to be traveling in pretty much the same track. The rider is out or the apex curve (and possibly setting up for the next one). Any countersteering going on is in anticipation of the next curve.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...pictures-1.jpg

This picture is exactly like the picture I showed of the cyclists. The front wheel of the motorcycle is turning towards the curve. The rider's body position is exactly the same. The right shoulder on the inside of the curve is dropped and pushed forward. The right arm is bent at the elbow and pulled downward towards the body. The left shoulder is pulled back and the left arm is extended and pushed away from the body. Look closely and you can see that the entire right side of the body is in a relaxed state. The cyclist picture shows exactly the same thing.

http://images.google.com/url?source=...ks8fnYECDn6yQA

Both riders show loading to the outside of the vehicle. The motorcyclist's position isn't a extreme as the cyclists but that's because the centers of gravity of the vehicle are vastly different.

http://www.daytonamotorcycletraining...ersteering.gif

This rider actually does show countersteering but it's for a entirely different reason. He's lost traction on the rear wheel is trying to regain control of the vehicle. I've had to do the same on a bicycle. One of the reasons that everyone says not to use your brakes in a corner is because you can slide the rear tire. You can but if you turn into the slide, just as this motorcyclist is doing, you can regain your balance and not crash.



Huh? I never said anything about pedaling or not pedaling around corners

Due to the tiny contact-patch at high-pressure, going over the traction limit is very sudden. There are things you can to beforehand to set up for safely catching an over-the-limit scenario and there are things you can do during.

One thing is weight-distribution. You've got two contact patches and how you divide the weight will determine which one slides first. The tyre with the higher weight WILL slide first. If you put 60% of your weight on the rear-tyre, it will have more traction than the front, but only 55% of the total traction, but it has to carry 60% of the weight, so it'll slide first. A sliding rear-tyre is MUCH, MUCH easier to catch and control than a sliding front-tyre. So, shift your weight to the back. Putting your weight on the outside pedal helps to push your weight to the back of the bike.

Second is picking the line. Stay in control, don't dive quickly (early apex) into a corner and end up having to slam on the brakes halfway through 'cause you're getting thrown to the outside and into oncoming traffic. As shown in the diagrams above, a smooth constant-radius turn gives you highest cornering speeds (middle apex). An late apex turn actually lets you see around the corner more before entering, so you'll be able to spot debris and potholes. The late-apex turn also gives you more room on the exit so you can straighten up and make corrections easier.

Next is body-positioning & lean-angles. I won't debate turn-in styles here, but just discuss steady-state at-the-limit cornering. I've found that if you lean your upper-body in more and keep the bike-upright (like those motorcycle pictures), the flatter contact patch on the ground slides more gradually and is more controllable than a tyre that's leaned over a lot. You can practice yourself in parking-lots by sprinkling some sand on the 2nd half of corners to see what happens when a tyre slides. If a tyre is at a high lean-angle, it tends to wash out and increase its lean angle more and more and slams you into the ground quicker than you can react. However, at the same cornering speed, a more vertical tyre tends to slide sideways more gradually and the bike stays upright, giving you a chance to maintain control.


Now, IF you've set up your line optimally, your weight-distribution and lean-angle to be as stable as possible and you encountre a slide, the most important thing is to RELAX and don't make any sudden movements. The front-end will want to waggle as it slides and regains traction. DON'T FIGHT IT! The rear-end may slide out and try to go in a straight line out of the corner. Just aim your front tyre in that direction as well and you'll stay upright. The rear-tyre will eventually follow in-line with the front-tyre and then you can straighten up a little to fix your line or to feather the brakes. Relax, it'll be OK.

To give DaveSSS his due, you do push on the right bar to initiate a right hand turn. This destabilizes a bicycle and makes move out of the straight line it wants to go in. However, after that destabilization, you use the momentum and the friction on the tire patch to move the center of gravity in the opposite direction of the countersteer. Once you are banked to the right, you keep pressure on the left side of the bicycle but lean to the right side to follow the curve.

If you are riding on a vehicle that is powerful enough to overwhelm the friction on the contact patch...such as a motorcycle...you may need to countersteer as the contact patch loses traction and slides but you would do that with any vehicle that is sliding. Bicycles seldom experience that kind of power. Our slideouts would be more a function of the surface we are riding on.

If you think about riding on dicey surfaces, the first thing you naturally do in those situations is return the bike to it's most stable position which is with the wheels tracking the same line and the center of gravity in a vertical plane with the bike. Essentially, turning into the slide rights the bike so you can regain control. However since our center of gravity is so much higher then a motorcycle, returning to that stable position is often difficult and we crash.

Cycocommute....

The more you write the more you prove that you don't have any experience with long sweeping corners at high speed. You were totally wrong about where to apply pressure to the handlebars. Despite the light weight of the bike, it still requires constant steering input to keep the bike turning. This is more obvious as speed increases and/or the turn radius decreases. It's also more obvious with a bike like a Colnago that has more steering trail than some other brands. I've been in the middle of a righthand hairpin at high speed and started drifting toward the the centerline. All it takes is little more force on the inside arm - pushing on the right, to turn right - and the bike will lean more and turn sharper.

Just for kicks, I did a little experiment during my ride down the mountain today. I went through some 25 mph rated sweeping turns at 38 mph, using only my inside arm to push and countersteer, holding my outside arm to my side, with both pedals held horizontal. None of the things that you claimed were necessary to execute a high speed turn were correct - particularly your silly idea that you have to keep your foot pushing down on the outside pedal. The only thing you must do is countersteer and keep that inside pedal off the ground.

Your claim that I harp on things I don't understand is amusing. You're the one who was totally wrong about the steering input. In the last six years, I've descended about 8,000 miles of mountain roads with many thousands of corners. I've also ridden several thousand miles of those same roads on a motorcycle.

I slid out once when an oncoming truck forced me into wet sand and once on dry sand, in all those thousands of turns. I really do think I know how it's done.

Last I tried, a bicycle has fixed amount of traction on its contact-patches. You can ALWAYS over come it in numerous ways. Refer to the friction-circle where you divide total grip into three vectors: accelerating, braking and cornering. Or any combination of the two (except for one combination which cancels itself out).

Now, one way to overcome the tyre's friction is through braking, you can always over come the rear tyre's traction due to the weight-shifting to the front under braking. You can also overcome the front tyre's friction under braking on a bike with long-wheelbase with a low seat that lets you hang off the back.

Under cornering it's even easier to overcome the tyre's grip. Lateral-acceleration is given by a=v^2/R. A bike's total grip in cornering is about 0.8-0.9 Gs and you can determine the maximum speed you can take on any given corner based upon its radius. Trying to corner tighter than that radius and you'll overcome the available traction on the tyres.


As for steady-state cornering, try this test In the middle of a corner, hop off the back side of the bike. What does the bike do???

:rolleyes: Funny. This thread has been very informative in my opinion.

I'm not exactly a noob but obviously have plenty left to learn. Danno's one hand drill worked great. I was railing some tight corners on my ride to work today. Can't wait for my next long and twisty decent. :D

It sounds like you are in violent agreement with CC. If you didn't apply any additional countersteering you would have kept going on the radius you started your turn at. Since you weren't leaning enough to begin with you needed to tighten your turning radius hence the need to push more on the right arm. Once you are leaned over in a right turn at a given radius the only time you need to steer left is if you want to tighten the radius. Take a look at you stem and the direction it's pointing (relative to your top tube) when you are in the middle of a turn in equilibrium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering provides a better explanation and some graphs as well.

ok you guys are confusing me... I am definitely BAD at high speed turns and want to learn to do it right.

Thanks for the video of counter steering, I think I had an epiphany about it...

say if your turning right and the bike is leaning right... if you yank the wheel right the bike will try and straight up thus stopping the turn... is that correct? so thats why force of basically turning the wheel left a little bit will keep you leaned and keep the turn going?...I'm bad at thinking about this stuff and want to go try it out but am at work...

Big whoop! Six years of riding. I have 5 times that and thousands more miles...most of it here in Colorado. Do not tell me that I'm inexperienced! I'm not fresh off the boat nor some wet-behind-the-ears newbie. I resent the implication.

Of course you can ride with pedal parallel to the ground, you can ride with your inner pedal down, and even no handed if you like. I'll bet your little experiment was squirrelly as hell too. You probably had to make all kinds of course corrections as you went around the corner. But, if a bicyclists wants to go through the corner faster and with more control, they ride like I've described. It's natural and is done without thinking about it. Everyone does.

I do apologize for the comment about 'harping on things you don't understand'. I was attempting to say something else and it came out wrong. For that I am sorry. What I was trying to say was that you keep concentration on only one item that I have said and not looking at the totality or perhaps not understanding what I was trying to say. Through the editing process...and some admitted hotness under the collar on my part...the above statement came out wrong. Again, I apologize for that.

Here a pretty good video on how to descend. Pay attention to what he says very early in the video...about 30 secs in...he says exactly what I've been saying about pedal pressure all along.

This video is about mountain biking. Although you won't run across the same conditions on a road bike, much of the advice offered is good no matter where you ride. Looking ahead and anticipating what you are going to deal with is good advice for any kind of riding.

I have to say, this is a pretty fricken hilarious thread. We've got 2 or 3 guys seemingly wanting to beat the snot out of each other when the OP merely states "Right now I can cruise along at 17-20 mph but as soon as I anticipate a curve in the road or path I hit the brakes and slow to 10-12 mph." This is not a guy who needs charts, graphs, physics lessons or videos on how to descend. This is a guy who just needs a little confidence, and who needs to ultimately trust that his tires will stick to the ground when leaning into a corner. Sure, much of this information is useful in descending and how best to negotiate your bike down a twisty descent.... but first one needs to get through step one, which is trusting your tires. Until this "trust" is in place, all this other stuff is just peeing in the wind.

Yes, that's correct. Simple way to think about is where your centre-of-gravity is relative to the two contact patches on the ground and it wants to go straight:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...keBalance2.gif

Say you're turning right with the bike leaned over to the right (picture on right). As long as your centre-of-gravity is to the right of the line between the contact patches, the bike will continue to turn right.

Now if you turn the wheel to the right (middle picture), you've moved the line between the contact-patches to other side of COG. You're basically tucking the front-tyre's contact patch under yourself to the other side. Meanwhile, your mass & COG still wants to go in a straight line. This straight path of the COG & mass is now to the left of the front contact-patch and will make bike lean towards the left... or straighten itself up and come out of the right corner.

If you continue to have the wheel aimed right after reaching upright, you'll start leaning to the left and carving a left turn. :)


BTW, if you ever watch motocycle-racing looking from the front head-on, you'll notice that the pivot point of the bike's lean isn't on the tyre's contact patch, it's centered around the COG. If you look vertically down at the rider, when they start a right-turn, the track of the front-tyre (and to a lesser extent, the rear tyre) actually moves left and then the COG continues to go in a straight line and falls to the right.