Anybody have a set of Soul S2.0 wheels?
07-09-09, 01:54 AM
#51
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Cool...thanks remix. It's great to hear that my skinny butt shouldn't have a problem. You rock!
07-09-09, 02:14 AM
#52
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This kind of makes me laugh that you posted this, because you can't see the answer right in front of your nose. The reason the model that Mark McM posted on the WW forum works is because he is also calculating the benefit of the inertial forces that a heavier wheel is effected by. The same thing with a flywheel - they stay at speed once you spin them up ... the energy from the original spin up isn't wasted, it's just delivered across a longer time frame. Same thing with a bicycle wheel - a heavier wheel actually has reverse benefits from a lighter one in that it requires more effort from friction to slow it down. In all practicality, for bicycle purposes that means that rotating mass is a zero sum game - bearing smoothness matters far more, since it's where friction is being applied. All in all, a 15 pound bike will go the same speed with the same power and gearing no matter how the weight is distributed.
That doesn't mean that lighter rims don't offer benefits when quick accelerations are required (say, field sprints or explosive moves on a climb) and heavier rims probably are actually superior in disciplines like time trials where accelerations are kept to a minimum and constant delivery of power is the goal.
That doesn't mean that lighter rims don't offer benefits when quick accelerations are required (say, field sprints or explosive moves on a climb) and heavier rims probably are actually superior in disciplines like time trials where accelerations are kept to a minimum and constant delivery of power is the goal.
If we went with Marks "model" we would be better off with the heaviest rims. Not only does physics and math (which is the language of physics) disagree with him, but my personal experiene does as well as what the "big boys" are doing. If I was riding in a velodome I would go aero, but on a real road I'll stick with lightweight/strong wheels
07-09-09, 05:47 AM
#53
Portland Fred
For starters, for all the yak you'll hear about cyclists make about maintaining constant power, it is not actually constant. There is no doubt that a good cyclist has a smooth stroke that provides steadier output than normal people generate, but human legs are not electric motors and the force won't actually be constant unless you average it over a 1/2 turn or so. Your models will also tell you that it's more efficient to stay seated at all times, but riders frequently stand on steep grades to let spinning muscles rest a bit or power over a riser, and the torque is significantly more variable. Yet even experts do it all the time -- because it's faster when you get actual human beings with muscles that tire and recover.
The end effect is that there are small constant accelerations. Even when you are not climbing, there still is an effect, though it is not as pronounced. Wind resistance and surfaces also vary continuously in most real life applications, and most riders attempt to maintain a steady cadence (and many keep an eye on the speedometer as well). Again, they wind up accelerating more than models will show.
Last edited by banerjek; 07-09-09 at 05:56 AM.
07-09-09, 05:55 AM
#54
Portland Fred
In all practicality, for bicycle purposes that means that rotating mass is a zero sum game - bearing smoothness matters far more, since it's where friction is being applied. All in all, a 15 pound bike will go the same speed with the same power and gearing no matter how the weight is distributed.
07-09-09, 08:34 AM
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so... sort of back to original topic...
I've been curious about the soul 2.0s as well. It's been between those and the Williams 19. I do admit that I'm a bit afraid of sub 1400gram wheels and am worried about the 2.0s holding up. The 19s are a bit more expensive but the ceramic bearing hubs really sound like an upgrade. I've ridding some hubs with ceramic bearings and they are so smooth and can just roll forever.
I've been curious about the soul 2.0s as well. It's been between those and the Williams 19. I do admit that I'm a bit afraid of sub 1400gram wheels and am worried about the 2.0s holding up. The 19s are a bit more expensive but the ceramic bearing hubs really sound like an upgrade. I've ridding some hubs with ceramic bearings and they are so smooth and can just roll forever.
07-09-09, 09:17 AM
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Aerodynamics is a totally different point - and is VERY important and wheels are certainly a key element of that. Has nothing to do with this thread though. Same thing with lighter wheels - lighter is always better. Just where you get that lightness from doesn't really matter much.
07-09-09, 10:09 AM
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07-09-09, 10:14 AM
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so... sort of back to original topic...
I've been curious about the soul 2.0s as well. It's been between those and the Williams 19. I do admit that I'm a bit afraid of sub 1400gram wheels and am worried about the 2.0s holding up. The 19s are a bit more expensive but the ceramic bearing hubs really sound like an upgrade. I've ridding some hubs with ceramic bearings and they are so smooth and can just roll forever.
I've been curious about the soul 2.0s as well. It's been between those and the Williams 19. I do admit that I'm a bit afraid of sub 1400gram wheels and am worried about the 2.0s holding up. The 19s are a bit more expensive but the ceramic bearing hubs really sound like an upgrade. I've ridding some hubs with ceramic bearings and they are so smooth and can just roll forever.
Edit: The upgrade cost is $100 us which makes them look more expensive than the Williams 19 but don't forget to add in the shipping and an extra $30 if you need a Campy freehub. With a Shimano freehub, to my door the price is $4 less for the Williams...but the S2.0 is a little more than 100g lighter. The S2.0 would be cheaper and lighter if you need the Campy freehub (like me
)
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Last edited by Grasschopper; 07-09-09 at 10:22 AM.
07-09-09, 10:45 AM
#59
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You can get ceramic bearings from Soul as well.
Edit: The upgrade cost is $100 us which makes them look more expensive than the Williams 19 but don't forget to add in the shipping and an extra $30 if you need a Campy freehub. With a Shimano freehub, to my door the price is $4 less for the Williams...but the S2.0 is a little more than 100g lighter. The S2.0 would be cheaper and lighter if you need the Campy freehub (like me )
Edit: The upgrade cost is $100 us which makes them look more expensive than the Williams 19 but don't forget to add in the shipping and an extra $30 if you need a Campy freehub. With a Shimano freehub, to my door the price is $4 less for the Williams...but the S2.0 is a little more than 100g lighter. The S2.0 would be cheaper and lighter if you need the Campy freehub (like me
)Also the Williams 19s have a 19mm rim profile, the Soul S2.0s are slightly deeper with a 25mm rim profile.
07-09-09, 11:07 AM
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thanks for the info about the soul ceramic hubs. Looks like the price would come out about the same in the end.
I bet that deeper rim in the souls is what keeps them from having a weight limit...
I bet that deeper rim in the souls is what keeps them from having a weight limit...
07-09-09, 11:20 AM
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i just noticed that you would have to install the bearings yourself though... I'm pretty decent with regular maintenance and fixes but have never messed with hub bearings. is that difficult... or expensive for an LBS to do?
07-09-09, 11:30 AM
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07-09-09, 02:35 PM
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HHAHAAAHAHA
Oh, a design engineer! Finally!
The rotational mass does matter, but differences in wheelset are generally inconsequential. Go ahead and calc the MOI of a 1200g and 2000g wheelset.
https://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm
I'm not saying there is no difference, but at least do a back-of-the-napkin calc to prove to yourself (and review some basic engineering) that aero trumps weight until you're climbing some serious grade.
Have a nice day.
Oh, a design engineer! Finally!
The rotational mass does matter, but differences in wheelset are generally inconsequential. Go ahead and calc the MOI of a 1200g and 2000g wheelset.
https://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm
I'm not saying there is no difference, but at least do a back-of-the-napkin calc to prove to yourself (and review some basic engineering) that aero trumps weight until you're climbing some serious grade.
Have a nice day.
07-09-09, 02:42 PM
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You can get ceramic bearings from Soul as well.
Edit: The upgrade cost is $100 us which makes them look more expensive than the Williams 19 but don't forget to add in the shipping and an extra $30 if you need a Campy freehub. With a Shimano freehub, to my door the price is $4 less for the Williams...but the S2.0 is a little more than 100g lighter. The S2.0 would be cheaper and lighter if you need the Campy freehub (like me )
Edit: The upgrade cost is $100 us which makes them look more expensive than the Williams 19 but don't forget to add in the shipping and an extra $30 if you need a Campy freehub. With a Shimano freehub, to my door the price is $4 less for the Williams...but the S2.0 is a little more than 100g lighter. The S2.0 would be cheaper and lighter if you need the Campy freehub (like me
)
07-09-09, 02:46 PM
#66
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It would seem there are different grades of bearings for roundness...and some ceramics are gonna be a inferior to some steel. So you have to sort of check that out too. Beyond that, I don't know a thing about the grades or costs or differences in performance. I won't guess, but if I had to, I'd call it marketing hype. The Soul bearings are already ridiculously smooth...could they get better? Doubt i could tell.
you would be able to tell the difference if the bearings were of the high grade ceramic type..
most easily noticeable.
07-09-09, 05:21 PM
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Get a kid through Physics 102 and he'll be able to convince himself, against all practical experience and common sense, that a 20lb bike with 3lb wheels will ride the same as a 20lb bike with 10lb wheels.
07-09-09, 08:13 PM
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Here and I had been resisting all this time...I don't have the S2.0 though...I have the S4.0 And I don't have any photos on the Neo Exile yet but here they are on my old Bottecchia
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07-09-09, 08:43 PM
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Are those the same 2.3mm blade spokes? If so, for aero purposes, what are your thoughts on it? Good? Pics on bikesoul are hard to see.
07-09-09, 08:58 PM
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Yes I have the standard build with the 2.3mm spokes. The wheels have been great so far, I have had no issues with that at all.
Got to put them on my Neo now that I am getting into better shape.
I gave the bike (with different wheels) to my brother in law...it was decent for a cheap bike (it is a BD alloy bike).
Got to put them on my Neo now that I am getting into better shape.
I gave the bike (with different wheels) to my brother in law...it was decent for a cheap bike (it is a BD alloy bike).
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07-09-09, 09:17 PM
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Tsuru, your pics really make me wish I had a set. Though everyone, it seems the SOUL S3.0s wont be in stock again until the end of this month, but the 2.0s and 4.0s are still in stock.
for the S4.0 Wheelset:
Rims weigh- N'litened Alloy rims, does anyone know how much they weigh?
HUBs weigh- 274g
Spokes-
Skewers- 90g
TOTAL WEIGHT- 1790g
Trying to see where the weight is all distributed in this wheelset
I think a worker/owner at SOUL is on this forum so it would be nice if you could help me out with this thank you!
for the S4.0 Wheelset:
Rims weigh- N'litened Alloy rims, does anyone know how much they weigh?
HUBs weigh- 274g
Spokes-
Skewers- 90g
TOTAL WEIGHT- 1790g
Trying to see where the weight is all distributed in this wheelset
I think a worker/owner at SOUL is on this forum so it would be nice if you could help me out with this thank you!
Last edited by VA_Esquire; 07-09-09 at 10:04 PM.
07-09-09, 09:54 PM
#74
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according to the website the hubs are
72g (Front) 202g (Rear), 274g pair ( weight without skewers)
i dont feel like doing the rest of the math
72g (Front) 202g (Rear), 274g pair ( weight without skewers)
i dont feel like doing the rest of the math
07-10-09, 02:35 AM
#75
Buns of Carbon
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HHAHAAAHAHA
Oh, a design engineer! Finally!
The rotational mass does matter, but differences in wheelset are generally inconsequential. Go ahead and calc the MOI of a 1200g and 2000g wheelset.
https://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm
I'm not saying there is no difference, but at least do a back-of-the-napkin calc to prove to yourself (and review some basic engineering) that aero trumps weight until you're climbing some serious grade.
Have a nice day.
Oh, a design engineer! Finally!
The rotational mass does matter, but differences in wheelset are generally inconsequential. Go ahead and calc the MOI of a 1200g and 2000g wheelset.
https://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm
I'm not saying there is no difference, but at least do a back-of-the-napkin calc to prove to yourself (and review some basic engineering) that aero trumps weight until you're climbing some serious grade.
Have a nice day.
You see the thing that people like you (and the eggheads who regurgitate math models on the net) don't get, is that engineering is WAY more than math models. It values hands on experience as much as prediction through mathematical models. The very fact that people who's life depends on it DON'T use discs on front and rear for every event and every part of a road course completely flies inthe face of the math voodoo posts that you guys keep pasting on here (besides..like you guys all understand all of the math...let alone how to apply energy-work equations in mechanical systems which is the most important thing anyway.)
So save your "have a nice day" BS for someone you actually have respect for and would therefor actually give a crap about your little attitude.