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draft while driving?

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Old 08-11-09 | 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven
20 feet makes very little difference. You need something around 5-6 feet in a car.
incorrect. Regardless of what kind of car you are drafting, 20 feet is plenty close to see a reduction in air resistance on your car. However, this does not necessarily translate to better fuel mileage.

Something as small as a double wide paceline makes a very palpable draft as much as 50 feet behind them.
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Old 08-11-09 | 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by haimtoeg
I believe it is common in F1 racing to draft the leader and pass in the straight or by late braking in a corner.
Pretty much, but at least through last season, they were so aero-dependent for grip that getting caught in the draft was often a bad situation approaching the corners.

Last year's cars sprouted so many aero doodads -- multi-element front wings, barge boards behind the front wheels that looked like they were poured from liquid, little winglets and slats all over the body... not a square inch was left untouched by wind tunnel experimentation. FIA tried to reduce grip by making the teams use tires with grooves in them, but the car designers kept finding ways to compensate with more downforce.

Now they're back to slick tires, with tall, narrow rear wings and low, wide, simpler front wings. The cars can't have as many aero gizmos on the body, either. FIA's intent was to force the cars to be less dependent on aerodynamics and more dependent on mechanical grip, which was supposed to allow more drafting and old-school passing -- in short, closer racing. For the most part, that's how this season has been going.

/end thread hijack
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Old 08-11-09 | 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by black_box
Don't count on that. If the person behind you were to swerve while hitting their brakes, that means when they hit you, the nose of their car will be lower (easier to get under your back end to lift it) and have extra traction due to the braking, plus a sideways force to kick the back end of your car to the side. If the rear end of your car loses traction at 65mph, there's a really good chance you're going to spin. Good luck counter-steering out of that one.
Braking is not the correct response in this hypothetical situation. The correct response is to go to one side or the other of the car that just slammed on their brakes. When you do this, it is very important to not touch your brakes. If you slam on your brakes and try to do this, you can roll your car, especially one with a higher COG. Avoid, don't brake.
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Old 08-11-09 | 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by crispy010
Braking is not the correct response in this hypothetical situation. The correct response is to go to one side or the other of the car that just slammed on their brakes. When you do this, it is very important to not touch your brakes. If you slam on your brakes and try to do this, you can roll your car, especially one with a higher COG. Avoid, don't brake.
That's all well and good, but never assume that the person you just brake-checked is going to know how to avoid hitting you.
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Old 08-11-09 | 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
That's all well and good, but never assume that the person you just brake-checked is going to know how to avoid hitting you.
This is why I do not brake-check people. Passive-aggression at it's worst.

I follow a little closer than is considered normal because I feel competent that I can cope with the situation (it's possible my risk analysis is completely wrong and I actually suck at driving, but that's a topic for another thread. I admit this is a subjective, biased self-analysis. Moving on...).

My general feeling is if you want to tailgate me that's fine. It's on you to be a competent-enough driver to be able to deal with that situation you've put yourself in.

It used to bother me, but then I realized I was being hypocritical because I tailgate other people, so I changed my position to be in line with my own behavior.
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Old 08-11-09 | 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by crispy010
Braking is not the correct response in this hypothetical situation. The correct response is to go to one side or the other of the car that just slammed on their brakes. When you do this, it is very important to not touch your brakes. If you slam on your brakes and try to do this, you can roll your car, especially one with a higher COG. Avoid, don't brake.
rolling an SUV or tall vehicle is possible (or anything if your tire pressures are low enough to roll over off the rim, check your tires!), but if you're tailgating that close to begin with, do you have enough room to react and turn your car enough to miss the one in front of you (then steer back so you're going the right direction). I assumed you wouldnt, and thats my definition of tailgating, following so close that your avoidance options are limited.

Of course, hoping that the typical driver knows the correct response is probably not safe. I would expect them to hit the brakes and swerve, which could end badly for the brake-checker. If I'm being tailgated, I'll either accelerate and move over or increase my following distance.
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Old 08-11-09 | 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by crispy010
I follow a little closer than is considered normal because I feel competent that I can cope with the situation (it's possible my risk analysis is completely wrong and I actually suck at driving, but that's a topic for another thread.
I don't think theres a substitute for practice and experience in your car handling skills. The best thing for my driving was taking a couple classes in car control (cheap from local car club) where they taught you how to counter-steer a spin and you actually practiced emergency braking, lane changes, braking while turning, etc. Highly recommended and its a shame that its not in driver's ed courses.
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Old 08-12-09 | 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitchxout
You ever notice those strips of steel-belted rubber on the side of the highway? Recaps flying off the back of a truck at 70mph are a helluva projectile.
+1 if you've ever been anywhere near a truck that loses some retread, you'd give them lots of room.
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Old 08-12-09 | 06:14 AM
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Recapped tires are dangerous as hell...but they're on the back of almost every semi and trailer on the road. I've had pieces of retread thrown up by other cars and hit me in the chest while riding my motorcycle- small pieces, but they still thump really hard even through an armored jacket. I don't ride anywhere near semi trailers, but you don't have to be close to at highway speeds to get into the "dirty air" behind them. I've never actually gotten close enough to one to feel like I'm in the bubble drafting it.

As far as being rear-ended by some inattentive driver at a light or what have you, the rear-ender is getting the short end of that stick via a B&W ball mount.

Last edited by saratoga; 08-12-09 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 08-12-09 | 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rooftest
I've never understood this way of thinking. "I'm angry that you're following me too close, so I will attempt to make you crash into me. Perhaps I will be killed, then you'll be a murderer! That will show you!"
Right, because if I actually have to slam on my brakes, that makes your tailgating, and the aforementioned possible death of me ok.

Don't ride my ass, don't get tried for vehicular manslaughter. Pretty simple.

I don't know how people near you brakecheck, but when I do it, there is very little actual braking involved. Most modern cars trip the light sensor before the pads contact the rotors. A very light tap on the pedal is usually enough to cause the lights to come on without slowing down.

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Old 08-12-09 | 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by black_box
I don't think theres a substitute for practice and experience in your car handling skills. The best thing for my driving was taking a couple classes in car control (cheap from local car club) where they taught you how to counter-steer a spin and you actually practiced emergency braking, lane changes, braking while turning, etc. Highly recommended and its a shame that its not in driver's ed courses.
At least not in the US..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOHa9Oji19g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy8LJx71_9o

I really wish that I had more thorough instruction when I was a kid. Basically, what I learned was basic car control, how to read signs, and how to stay away from other cars. I wasn't taught -- at least not through official means -- how to drive in snow or rain, how to read traffic flow, how easy it really is to lose control and how to get it back, etc etc. Sometimes I'm surprised that I've made it this far without totaling my own car.

*add-on* I appreciate that you got to do an advanced school, but really, shouldn't everyone have to take instruction like that? It's not like your car is any more dangerous than any others and needs you to know more about driving. Out on the road, everyone from a 16-year-old rookie to someone who started in a Model T, from national amateur racing champions to totally unskilled accident magnets, is put in control of equally dangerous machinery on the same roads in the same conditions as everyone else. Everyone should, then, have to learn those "advanced" skills.
/*add-on*

*add-on #2 * I think my point really is -- would you trust the idiots you see every day to teach people how to drive? Because when the required driver's ed courses don't teach very much to begin with, the knowledge gap between the classroom and reality has to be filled somehow -- and it's going to be filled by the idiots who are friends and family to a new driver. Better to teach all the correct stuff to begin with, IMO, than to let them be taught bucketfuls of misinformation.
/*add-on #2*

Last edited by BarracksSi; 08-12-09 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 08-12-09 | 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by black_box
I don't think theres a substitute for practice and experience in your car handling skills. The best thing for my driving was taking a couple classes in car control (cheap from local car club) where they taught you how to counter-steer a spin and you actually practiced emergency braking, lane changes, braking while turning, etc. Highly recommended and its a shame that its not in driver's ed courses.
I did take a course like this recently called Driver's Edge. I would highly recommend it to anyone with kids who are about the start driving, or have been driving for a couple of years. Age limit is 15-21, but parents are welcome to come and watch, and you will learn a whole lot just by watching.
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Old 08-12-09 | 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
I really wish that I had more thorough instruction when I was a kid. Basically, what I learned was basic car control... *add-on* I appreciate that you got to do an advanced school, but really, shouldn't everyone have to take instruction like that? It's not like your car is any more dangerous than any others and needs you to know more about driving.
I agree, driver's ed in the US is simply how to operate a vehicle, not how to drive. I took something similar to Street Survival when I was 23 and had just moved from a 92hp front wheel drive car with an automatic transmission to a 240hp rear wheel drive, manual transmission. Night and Day. The first car couldnt get out of its own way if you dropped a brick on the gas pedal, the second car can pin you into the seat or put you into a slide right now.

The course wasn't particularly advanced, an hour or two of classroom and the rest of the day driving on wet asphalt. It was designed for teenagers but everyone can benefit from it, and I'd love to see it incorporated into driver's ed. It looks like driver's edge is very similar (and free? wow!).

Last edited by black_box; 08-12-09 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 08-12-09 | 08:54 AM
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Us older drivers should be able to be "grandfathered" into Driver's Edge because we didn't get the opportunity when we were younger..
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Old 08-12-09 | 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Us older drivers should be able to be "grandfathered" into Driver's Edge because we didn't get the opportunity when we were younger..
Well it just means you'll have to pay for instruction at a driving school

The catch with Driver's Edge being free is a 400 person class fills up in about 20 minutes, so when registration opens you gotta be on their site doing it right then.
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Old 08-12-09 | 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by crispy010
Well it just means you'll have to pay for instruction at a driving school

The catch with Driver's Edge being free is a 400 person class fills up in about 20 minutes, so when registration opens you gotta be on their site doing it right then.
Sounds like the autocrosses around here; 250 slots per event, maybe 200 season subscribers, leaving the other hundred-plus non-subscribers to scramble for the leftovers as soon as the registration site opens. I think that the only reason the servers aren't crashing as often this year is because of the economy and people aren't racing as often.
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Old 08-12-09 | 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
How will you kill yourself ? If someone bumps you from behind, they are more likely to get hurt.
Would you be willing to bet your life (or the lives of your passengers) on it?

Also - why is it "ok" to injure other people on the road? Would you stab somebody at the supermarket if they cut in front of you?

Last edited by rooftest; 08-12-09 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 08-12-09 | 04:58 PM
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If you want better fuel mileage, you're better off leaving extra room in front of you. This will reduce the amount of accelerating / braking that you have to do.

Also by making it easier for other cars to merge, you will be improving the general traffic flow which also helps your driving time and mileage (obviously the more people that do this, the more of an effect there will be).
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