Long time reader, very limited poster. Some of you will say get a $500 professional fit, however, for those with other input I am interested in your thoughts.

Looking to upgrade to a carbon frame from a specialized allez elite 58cm. My current set-up on the 58cm allez has a 90 cm stem with +16 rise. My saddle to bar drop is about 2.5cm. This set-up leaves me feeling stretched on the hoods, thus leaving me in a position less than comfortable for cruising after the 12 mile mark or so. I would like to shorten up the TT, but have a pretty large inseam for my size. See my Competitive Fit calcs below:

Measurements
-------------------------------------------
Inseam: 34.25
Trunk: 22.75
Forearm: 13.25
Arm: 26
Thigh: 23.75
Lower Leg: 23
Sternal Notch: 58.5
Total Body Height: 70.25

The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 56.3 - 56.8
Seat tube range c-t: 58.1 - 58.6
Top tube length: 53.7 - 54.1
Stem Length: 10.8 - 11.4
BB-Saddle Position: 82.5 - 84.5
Saddle-Handlebar: 51.3 - 51.9
Saddle Setback: 4.5 - 4.9

The Eddy Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 57.5 - 58.0
Seat tube range c-t: 59.3 - 59.8
Top tube length: 53.7 - 54.1
Stem Length: 9.7 - 10.3
BB-Saddle Position: 81.7 - 83.7
Saddle-Handlebar: 52.1 - 52.7
Saddle Setback: 5.7 - 6.1

The French Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 59.2 - 59.7
Seat tube range c-t: 61.0 - 61.5
Top tube length: 54.9 - 55.3
Stem Length: 9.9 - 10.5
BB-Saddle Position: 80.0 - 82.0
Saddle-Handlebar: 53.8 - 54.4
Saddle Setback: 5.2 - 5.6


As you can see, I am not going to find any combination of a 58 - 60 cm bike with a 54-55 TT. I have taken several carbon bikes for a test:

56cm Madone 5.2 - seat was extended to the top of range, reach still seemed fairly long - stem 110
58cm Madone 4.7 - seat height was considered pretty good by guy at this particular shop, reach to hoods was somewhat long - stem I believe was standard.
58cm Felt F3 - seat height was considered good for legs - reach was a little long even after dropping the stem to 10cm. I believe this bike had a 73.5 degree ST.
55cm Bianchi 928 MonoQ - saddle to bar drop pretty large, reach was probably the best of the others tested - stem length 110. Fitter at this shop said bike was way to small and that I would want a larger HT (bike was 14.5) - - no 57cm to try out though.

I am considering the Wilear Izoard, but can't ride it. Based on the geometries of the L and XL, what is your input on fit considerations:

L - TT would be more ideal for my body size, saddle set back to accommodate legs could be an issue. Also, decrease in HT length is about 4.5cm which I may be a large factor. The Felt I test rode had the same TT and I didn't really notice any discomfort in my limited ride time --20mins or so. The Felt also had the same ST degree 73.5 degrees as the Wilier, but about 2.2cm in more TT length.

XL - C-T seat tube is spot on for me and the TT would be shortened compared to my Specialized, but not by much. I would like to keep my stem length no less than 9cm. The HT also increase by 3.5cm over the L, but is 1cm shorter than my current bike.

My main use would be daily and weekend rides 15-20 during the week and 30-50 on weekends and I would like to use the bike for triathlons starting in 2010.

Also suggestions for other bikes to try that might work or would be of comparable geometries to the Wilier would be appreciated, I have been researching frame geometries for months now for my bike upgrade.

Thanks.

If you want help, you should post the vital information, like your actual saddle height and the geometry of the frame using that stubby 90mm stem with the high rise. Then it could be compared to prospective new frames. With an 87cm inseam, I would expect about a 77cm saddle height.

The seat tube has no effect on fit and can be ignored, except in the very rare case where the seat post can't be raised high enough. I could raise the post on my 51cm LOOK to 77cm and not max out a 350mm seatpost.

The dimensions to concentrate on are the TT length, the seat tube angle and the head tube length, with the headset.

You have about the same proportions as I do, but with 4cm more inseam length. One of the big issues is the small saddle to bar drop that you are using. In constrast to your 2.5cm drop, I use 11.5cm even at my advanced age of 56. I increased my drop by 2cm just last year. If you know that you can't tolerate a more average drop in the 5-7cm range, you'll always need a high rise stem. The length of a flipped up stem is about one size shorter, horizontally. Your 90mm stem only has a horizontal length of about 75mm.

You should not need a TT as short as those proposed by the CC fit calculator. I'm 9-10cm shorter and use a 53cm TT with a 74.5 degree STA that makes the reach about the same as a 54cm TT with a 73.5 degree STA. I use short reach bars with a 110mm stem. You should be able to tolerate quite a bit more reach than I use.

I would be sure to use short reach bars to help with the reach problem. I like the Easton EC-90 SLX3, but there are other goods ones.

The 160mm head tube on the size L Willier is just too short for you. You need to look at frames with taller head tubes for a more recreational fit.

You want to look at relaxed geometry. You won't know how relaxed you need without
trying them, or a pro level fitting.

Try some bikes with traditional geometry. They typically had the bars level with the saddle or an inch lower. There were also often square, meaning the seat tube and top tube would be the same. This might well be a good choice for you. I have been drooling over this for years. Check the top tube length.
https://www.gunnarbikes.com/roadiespecs.php



The Waterford version is even nicer, especially the 2200.

$500 for a fitting? are you talking about something like the old "Fit Kit"? where they measure you leggs, torso arms, ect? they have gone up alot since I worked in the business. we used to charge about $50 and normally if your were buying a really topshelf bike it would be no charge.

while a well fitting bike is impotant for the quality of your workout I feel some of us just get too caught up looking for the perfect fit.

Dave - Thanks for the input. My saddle height is about 77cm. I believe I could tolerate more saddle to bar drop presuming the reach is shortened. My flipped up stem is more about reach (horizontal) for comfort than back or other comfort.

I know you don't want to hear it - but a fitting would be a good option. There's no need for it to cost $500. A basic fit will be around $100 and can usually be included with the purchase (as stated above).

Also - how long have you been riding? Feeling stretched out is not unusual if you're new to road bikes.

From what you've said it sounds like you need a really long headtube That would get the bars higher and closer to level with your seat without a long top tube. I would try the Specialized Roubaix but I don' know how much that differs from the Allez.

Glad I came here to ask also to get more info on the intricacies of fitting. The conversion of my 90mm stem to only 75mm due to angle clears things up for me. I was curious why even with the shorter TT's of the Madone's my reach felt eerily similar to my current bike and the fact is my effective reach was unchanged as they were normal stems - - limited rise (6 degree maybe) and 100-110mm. So essentially I lost the TT reduction to stem. Probably would not have learned that from a bike shop as I was fit on my current bike through about a 60-90 process.

The suggestion to get a fitting is not a bad idea, but keep in mind that all a fitter can do is put you on a bike, set the saddle height and fore/aft position to KOP, then look at your position. You will porbably look just fine with a much larger drop and much longer reach, but you will probably find that position uncomfortable until you gain some experience.

I suspect that a lack of cycling fitness is the real problem here. You shouldn't have to make up for a little more drop with an even shorter reach. Consider my setup. I'm 67 inches tall (169cm) with a 73cm saddle height. I have the saddle nose set 6-7cm behind the BB and still use a 110mm stem with the short reach bars (or a 100mm with more standard bars), in addition to the 11-12cm drop.

A +16 or +17 degree stem will raise the bars by 5-6cm compared to the -17 degree that I use. There's nothing wrong with a setup like that for a beginner, but you should try dropping the bars a little at a time.

FWIW, Treks have long TT lengths for a given size, so they won't be the best choice, even in the more recreational models with the taller head tube. A 56cm would provide the best fit. The Specialized Roubaix in the same size would have another 20mm of head tube length, but the reach would be about 5mm longer.

Another possibility is the Giant Defy in the M/L size, with a 185mm head tube. The reach is nearly identical to the 56cm Trek, but the head tube is 15mm taller.

Its pretty subjective. Grant Petersen argues most people buy bikes too small for them. The best rule of thumb would be to buy the biggest bike you can straddle safely and ride it. Fewer adjustments have to made to get the bars up to where they should be.