Im hearing alot about carbon bikes being trashed after one crash. has anyone out there lost carbon frame in a crash? how fast do you think you were going? im trying to choose between ti and carbon for my new bike and my lbs tells me ti is not as indestructible as everyone says. any thoughts?

Both material can break in a crash, you hear more about carbon breaking because there are a ton of carbon bikes around. I've crashed at ~27-30mph (someone went down in the front of the pack as we were winding up speed for a sprint finish and took 10 people down) on a carbon bike before and my bike was fine.

not claiming to have a scientific answer, but here's my rationale.

I got hit by a car on a Kestel Airfoil Pro 3 years ago. The fork was destoyed and the frame was badly scarred up, but there were no signs of catastrophic damage. I sent it back to Kestrel and apparently they X-rayed it and confirmed that it was OK. The insurance company of the girl who hit me paid me for a new bike anyway. The moral of the story is that a carbon bike doesn't have to have visible damage to show a potentially serious flaw. I know of MANY Ti frames that have cracked from crashes and incidental use. Usually when metal cracks, its a no brainer. You'll hear something, it won't feel right, or you'll clearly see it.

I would never buy a bike based on that data. Chances are that a crash that would compromise a carbon bike will do the same to Ti, Alum., or steel. Since I got hit, I've owned 4 carbon bikes and never looked back - I'll keep buying carbon bikes.

I will tell you that from everyday use, I've personally seen more issues with Ti frames than I have carbon - especially considering the ratio of carbon to Ti bikes. I have one very close friend who has sent 2 bikes back to a very well-known Ti company in a 3 year period. He loves the feel of his Ti though.

Buy a bike based on how it feels to you. There are huge differences in the feel between both materials.

Agree. Just watch Tours on TV. Riders get up from crashes and keep going. Wheels might need replaced but that's it.

I've got pictures of a top of the line Litespeed with the entire head tube ripped off, but the carbon fork is still intact. The bike broke right at the weld joints with the TT and DT.

Don't by a bike assuming that it will or won't survive a crash.

I've got three LOOK CF frames. Two of them survived bike/car collisions with no damage and one of those has also been in two slide-outs. The third is still a virgin. A slide-out crash won't damage a frame unless a wheel slams into a curb or someone else rides over the top of you.

Agreed. But from watching the tours I also learned that sometimes, when carbon is crashed, it fails SPECTACULARLY! Remember the guy who rode right into a sign post? His Carbon bike was in three different pieces, he was just laying there holding the handlebars . I think he got up, grabbed a new bike and motored on. The support team was left behind scratching thier heads and collecting the pieces.

That crash probably would have broke a frame of any other material as well. As someone mentioned above, a crash severe enough to damage a carbon frame will most likely damage any frame material. And when carbon cracks, it will feel different as well and a lot of time it will creak from the rubbing of the frame around the crack.

Carbon is very durable, it's used in airplanes, race cars, etc.

But I thought Carbon will explode on contact with the ground. My universe has now been turned upside down.

*sigh* No, exploding carbon due to a crash is not the danger.

It's the *spontaneously* exploding carbon that will get you every time.

You know: "I was Just Riding Along, and *whoosh*."

And I have a high-end carbon fiber frame in my garage with a cracked top tube as a result of falling over from a workstand...

There are several carbon fiber frame manufacturers out there who put a premium on durability and ride quality at the expense of weight (Crumpton and Calfee come to mind). IMO, the chances of these frames surviving a crash is greater than big-tubed, thin-walled, super lightweight carbon fiber frames on the market (Scott Addict comes to mind, and there are several stories on the web to agree with this). Likewise, a thin-walled, lightweight titanium frame has a greater chance of failure in a crash than a heavier frame with thicker tubing (if I was a betting man, I would go ahead and say that the failed top-end Litespeed frame in question was a Ghisallo).

In short, know what you are buying before you buy it, no matter what the frame material is.

Professional riders at the Tour level ride what they get paid to ride. They also do not care if their frame survives in a crash since there is always a car following them with spare bikes.

Yes, but would it have been as spectacular???

Don't forget, carbon is flammable, too. If it spontaneously explodes, get off quick!

"Professional riders at the Tour level ride what they get paid to ride."


True but it is interesting that they are never paid to ride anything anymore except carbon frames.

Here's the bottom line. Titanium is more durable than carbon fiber.

Rather than comparing anecdotal reports of catastrophic accidents and their outcomes, look instead at the tens of thousands of incidental "accidents" that happen daily.

A good example is the post above regarding a cracked top tube resulting from a repair stand fall. Add to that when your bike falls after you've leaned it against something, when you throw your chain into your chain stay, when you fall over on your bike while clipped in your pedals, etc.

Those incidents are insignificant with titanium bikes and a "repair" (if any) consists of rubbing a frame scratch with a Scotchbrite pad.

You mean anecdotal reports of incidental accidents??? Or is there some national accident database register that I'm not aware of. Your assertion that Titanium is more durable is unsupported.

Here is some old but good reading; it sheds some light onto durability (and other factors) using different materials:

https://www.63xc.com/scotn/metal.htm

Don't be silly, you know what I mean.

And if you don't, let's get your carbon fiber bike and my titanium bike and intentionally throw the chain on the stay 100 times on each bike. We can then observe the results.

I've crashed carbon bikes more times than I can count with no damage... Never ridden Ti but crashed my Al bike once and dented it beyond repair. Carbon is stronger than people think.

I'm being silly? As far as I know bike designers don't assume people are going to be beating the stays with chains. That is a meaningless test. You were the one that made the claim that Ti was more durable than Carbon. I continue to assert that your claims are unsupported.

We had the opposite. Customer came in after driving his ti Seven into his garage, classic case of roof-rack memory lapse. Final score: frame 1, carbon fork 0. No word on the car or garage We put a new fork on it.

A few days later it came back. He'd backed his car over his bike. I think he needs to get rid of either the car or the bike... anyway, this time he caved in the driveside seatstay. Strip frame, pack it, send it off to Seven, and it comes back with a new seatstay. Try THAT with a carbon bike

As for the original topic, I work at a shop that sells a certain major-name brand of bikes. I've seen enough of their carbon frames fail to know that I definitely don't want one of this particular design. I'm not talking about crashing, I'm talking about failing in routine daily riding. We had a customer come back from a test ride with a broken chainstay. I have another customer who's broken his driveside chainstay twice. The first time, one of our mechanics was riding right beside him on a casual organized ride when it happened, so we know he's not abusing it. The design needs a little beefing up. Oh noes, it'll weigh 100 grams more, what will we dooooo...

Counterpoint: we had a ti frame come through recently that had a fractured downtube. The fracture was radiating in several directions from one of the waterbottle bosses, which were rivnuts rather than welded-in threaded fittings. I've never seen ti fail like that before. Always something new...

You have to equalize as many variables as possible in making this comparison. Same weight frame + fork or else you've got more of one material than the other and the comparison isn't valid. I bet you a 8-lb carbon frameset will take way more of a beating than a 4-lb titanium one. And then you've got to have same geometry, components and wheels.

FWIW, I've crashed my 1991 Specialized Allez Epic more times than I could keep track of, must be in the 30-50x range. I'm on my 3rd fork as they didn't survive.

Don't crash. Or to minimize the chances of a crash ride by yourself. Better still, take up knitting.

A guy I worked with dropped the chain onto the stay of his new titanium frame once and had to pull the chain free. A month later, the stay cracked through where the chain had dropped.

My worst crashes have all been solo. I'm a threat to my own safety. I should stay away from myself, but that's not so easy.

Ti is certainly less likely to detonate in a crash than CF, but it's really better to not crash in the first place.