Isn't a 17 degree stem standard? This thread makes it sound like it. https://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-395276.html

Old quill stems were frequently 17 degrees but threadless stems on stock bikes are generally 6-10 degrees. A 17 degree stem will be basically parallel with the ground when flipped or significantly into the air. If your stem is not parallel with the ground now, you can get your bars lower by going with a 17 degree stem.

Here's few things to consider. The STA affects the maximum or minimum saddle setback and it also affects the frame reach. A steeper STA increases the reach by 8-9mm per degree in this smaller-size frame range and 9-10mm per degree as the frame size increases. Those with short legs may have problems getting enough saddle setback unless they use a post with 25-32mm of setback. That's because small frames tend to have steep STAs and the short saddle height also moves the saddle forward by about 1cm for each 3cm of saddle height.

I still contend that it is a mistake for riders to obsess over KOP. There are many experts who contend that KOP is not only meaningless, but it almost guarantees a poor weight balance over the saddle, particularly for long -torsoed riders who really need more setback for proper weight balance.

Even though I have a short torso, I still have my saddle tip 6-7cm behind the BB center with a 73cm saddle height. I can achieve this with a 74.5 degree STA and a post having at least 25mm of setback, but 32mm works better. This setup balances my weight over the saddle so I have little weight on my hands and balance the bike properly with 45% of the weight on the front. A long torsoed rider with the saddle too far forward will have too much weight on his hands and a bike with 50% or more of the weight on the front.

https://www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20final%20docs/backyard%20positioning_julu_aug_2004.pdf
https://www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20final%20docs/THINGS%20YOU%20MAY%20NOT%20HAVE%20KNOWN%20ABOUT%20BIKE%20POSITION_final.pdf
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Yeah this is pretty much what I'm seeing now. I have a seatpost from FSA with 35mm of setback and use a san marco regal which has short rails so it can only go back so far. I do notice if I shove it back further I'm balanced better (otherwise I've got quite a bit of force on the bars) but then I have to lower the post to keep from hips rocking and the drop from saddle to bars is barely existent. Damnit! This frame drives me nuts.

Not only do I feel too far forward at KOPS, my knees don't like it either. My knees are at least 10mm behind KOPS, possibly closer to 20mm (never really measured, just adjusted until I was comfortable). My LOOK KG386 frame has a 72 degree STA (cutout seat tube to clear the rear tire) which makes this easy even without any setback on the seatpost.

Have you exhausted your stem and spacer options? A 73 (-17) degree stem with no spacers is a common sight on pro bikes. Even with my long legs, I use a 73 degree stem and only 5mm of spacer.

If you have a 15-20mm top section on an integrated headset, you can usually replace it with something around 8mm.

Yeah are you talking about the top cap? The little plastic thing on top of the headset but below the stem spacers? I have one that "tapers" and is kind of tall - you can get shorter ones then? Good idea!

Well I ended up buying a 51 cm R3 on closeout (2009) after trying the 54 in the store and finding the drop to be the same as my Cannondale. After building it up, the drop is way better but I'm pretty bummed that the reach seems too short. The picture below is me on it with a 130 stem.

Turns out I'm also 5'8.5" with a 79cm inseam - so maybe I've got shorter legs than I thought. Not sure what my options are now. There is a hairline crack on the drive side of the bb that I'm talking to the dealer about, so if I get a replacement I may just sell it and try something else .

Apparently you failed to properly compare the reach of various brands. Cervelo has one of the shortest reaches. A LOOK frame would have been a better choice. They do make 140mm -17 degree stems.

Also, if you're setting youre saddle fore/aft position based on KOP, you might be able to gain 10-20mm of reach just by moving your saddle back. KOP is nothing sacred and often puts too much weight on your hands - particularly for riders with a long torso.

Thanks DaveSSS. Yeah I just set my fore/aft based on feel/cadence and then I check with a plumb bob to make sure I'm not too far off. In this pic I'm on a zero setback and it puts me a centimeter or two back from KOPS. Yeah I was just looking at the Look 585 and that probably would have been better. I see about a 2cm diff in reach on the same size frame. It's so hard to tell on this stuff though:

cervelo R3 51:

120 HT, 370 Reach, 530 Top Tube, 73 Seat Angle, 73 HT Angle, 399 Rear Center, 558 Front Center, BB Drop 68

Look 585 S:

125 HT, 394 Reach, 530 Top Tube, 74.5 Seat Angle, 72 HT Angle, 405 Rear Center, 580 Front Center, BB Drop 70

I can't really afford a new 585 though (only got the Cervelo cuz it was on closeout). I've got a friend who's going to check out my options when he gets back from out of town and he has extensive fit experience so we'll see where I end up. Definitely bummed, but oh well - such is the life of the odd torso/leg ratio'd fella

Looks like a Super-Six Hi-Mod would work better too (though Look is still the longest):

Super Six Hi-Mod 52:

120 HT, 382 Reach, 535 Top Tube, 74 Seat Angle, 73 HT Angle, 405 Rear Center, 574 Front Center, BB Drop 72

Get rid of that zero offset post. Try moving the saddle back at least 10mm. A lot of people create their own fit problems by following outdated rules of thumb that have been largely discredited. KOP is one of them.