Generic Carbon & big $$$
07-10-10 | 08:21 PM
#51
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
In my opinion, a degree in anything doesn't mean jack. A degree only means you went to school and passed the exams but in the REAL world, a degree just gets you an interview. It is your personal experience in the industry that really counts. Don't be so arrogant about having studied more than other people and start calling them ignorant.
Look outside your little box and see where the industry in composite materials is going. It's not going to Taiwan I can tell you that. CF is still very much centered around Japan and the US, but Europe and China also have a very healthy CF industry. Again, just look it up by using the good old Search function in your internet browser. It's that easy Professor. Investments by large congolomerates into Chinese manufacturing, especially in aerospace doesn't mean Taiwan is going away. I never said that. You said it. But actions speaks louder than words so since the vast majority of foreign investments into China for all kinds of things including CF only means they are more capable than Taiwan. That is what I implied in my previous posts and that certainly holds true.
Look outside your little box and see where the industry in composite materials is going. It's not going to Taiwan I can tell you that. CF is still very much centered around Japan and the US, but Europe and China also have a very healthy CF industry. Again, just look it up by using the good old Search function in your internet browser. It's that easy Professor. Investments by large congolomerates into Chinese manufacturing, especially in aerospace doesn't mean Taiwan is going away. I never said that. You said it. But actions speaks louder than words so since the vast majority of foreign investments into China for all kinds of things including CF only means they are more capable than Taiwan. That is what I implied in my previous posts and that certainly holds true.
07-10-10 | 08:23 PM
#52
SpeedFreak
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: The OC
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champ Ti
There are still quite a few CF frame manufacturers in the USA.
Here is a good example and a good argument for it: https://www.aegisbicycles.com/about.html
Another: https://crumptoncycles.com/
The big US makers still make their best CF frames in the USA too.
It doesn't mean the Taiwanese and Chinese made frames are inferior. But they generally make the less expensive CF frames there.
Here is a good example and a good argument for it: https://www.aegisbicycles.com/about.html
Another: https://crumptoncycles.com/
The big US makers still make their best CF frames in the USA too.
It doesn't mean the Taiwanese and Chinese made frames are inferior. But they generally make the less expensive CF frames there.
07-10-10 | 08:25 PM
#53
Extra Medium Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,880
Likes: 26
From: Erie, Co
Bikes: Fezzari Empire; State 6061 Allroad gravel; Scott Spark; Specialized Status 140
So, uh......yeeeeeeahhhhh.....how are those bikes anyway? Anyone riding them? (<----that's a serious question btw)
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Droping the hamer since '86
Droping the hamer since '86
07-10-10 | 08:27 PM
#54
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 3
From: Beautiful Long Beach California
Bikes: Eddy Merckx San Remo 76, Eddy Merckx San Remo 76 - Black Silver and Red, Eddy Merckx Sallanches 64 (2); Eddy Merckx MXL;
I was very close to hitting 50mph on my eBay frame yesterday. I'm not worried about it.
I like having the cheap generic carbon, because it allows some people, like myself, to build up a quality bike for cheap.
Of course not everyone is going to do that, and some may think that's taking a risk.
I like having the cheap generic carbon, because it allows some people, like myself, to build up a quality bike for cheap.
Of course not everyone is going to do that, and some may think that's taking a risk.
07-10-10 | 08:28 PM
#55
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
serious answer? parlee and crumpton are probably the best carbon frame makers out there. why? custom geometries, and more attention to detail than any factory could hope to match in a mold/assembly line system. plus they're so damn classy, but you get what you pay for, and you'd be paying a premium for those fine points.
07-10-10 | 08:29 PM
#56
SpeedFreak
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: The OC
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champ Ti
The gist of the OP was simply, is there a difference in a frame that was designed by big name manufacturers versus those who were made to specs by unknown companies? In the case of Franco bicycles, two guys who just started out making and designing bicycle frames.
Many who posted to this thread believes it makes no difference.
If that's the case, then why buy the nice Specialized, Giant, Trek, Scott, Cannondale, etc. bikes? Save your money and buy a Motobecane or Mercier from BikesDirect.
Franco's new bike got a really good review in the last bicycle mag I read so it must be good.
But better than the big name, top line CF bicycles? Only the buyers can answer that.
Many who posted to this thread believes it makes no difference.
If that's the case, then why buy the nice Specialized, Giant, Trek, Scott, Cannondale, etc. bikes? Save your money and buy a Motobecane or Mercier from BikesDirect.
Franco's new bike got a really good review in the last bicycle mag I read so it must be good.
But better than the big name, top line CF bicycles? Only the buyers can answer that.
07-10-10 | 08:33 PM
#57
Bikesman
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
From: Northern Clime
Bikes: Giant Seek 1 IGH; Specialized Roubaix On Order
The manufacturing in China and Taiwan is much better than that in the US. This is why virtually every product for sale in the United States is made abroad. The Chinese attention to detail in design is a great benefit to everyone.
There is no difference between a $100 eBay frame and the $3,000 "big name frame." None at all save a paint job.
There is no difference between a $100 eBay frame and the $3,000 "big name frame." None at all save a paint job.
07-10-10 | 08:36 PM
#59
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 3
From: Beautiful Long Beach California
Bikes: Eddy Merckx San Remo 76, Eddy Merckx San Remo 76 - Black Silver and Red, Eddy Merckx Sallanches 64 (2); Eddy Merckx MXL;
The manufacturing in China and Taiwan is much better than that in the US. This is why virtually every product for sale in the United States is made abroad. The Chinese attention to detail in design is a great benefit to everyone.
There is no difference between a $100 eBay frame and the $3,000 "big name frame." None at all save a paint job.
There is no difference between a $100 eBay frame and the $3,000 "big name frame." None at all save a paint job.
07-10-10 | 08:36 PM
#60
SpeedFreak
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: The OC
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champ Ti
okay palomar, let's just agree to disagree. it's true, my degree (not my primary... taken out of interest for the subject), is just being able to write essays and pass exams. but a degree is certainly worth more than the opinion of an internet hero. i'll leave it at that. i really think you ought to consider the fact that no one agrees with you, and reevaluate your own insights. you're no copernicus.
I'm just surprised that even just doing light research on the subject of CF and bicycle manufacturing, bicycle reviews, etc., so many people who posted here seem to contradict what I have found. Again.....pls. use the Search function and see for yourself. The internet is a wonderful thing.
In the end, the buyer is the one who enjoys the product. If you are happy with your bicycle brand and where it as made, that's all that matters in the end.
Peace out.
07-10-10 | 08:39 PM
#61
Extra Medium Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,880
Likes: 26
From: Erie, Co
Bikes: Fezzari Empire; State 6061 Allroad gravel; Scott Spark; Specialized Status 140
serious answer? parlee and crumpton are probably the best carbon frame makers out there. why? custom geometries, and more attention to detail than any factory could hope to match in a mold/assembly line system. plus they're so damn classy, but you get what you pay for, and you'd be paying a premium for those fine points.
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Droping the hamer since '86
Droping the hamer since '86
07-10-10 | 08:45 PM
#62
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
Well, yeah...I agree that those are two extraordinarily top end rides. But I was really asking about the ride and quality of these "generic" rides. As a former custom builder myself (steel and Ti) I certainly know and appreciate the finer points of a bike built with passion and an artisan flair. But since I don't do that anymore, and can't build one for, well, basically free...I'm not in the position to buy one either. I've been considering one of the "no-name" carbon frames as a build for this fall.
07-10-10 | 10:18 PM
#63
Velo Club La Grange
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,215
Likes: 0
From: MDR, CA
All peoples/cultures (yes, westerners too) have a tendency to "take" the innovations of others and refine them.
What you call "taking innovations" and "refining them" is generally referred to as "cultural diffusion."
07-10-10 | 11:15 PM
#64
What a thread 
Just some facts and info:
This was updated March 18, 2008 so even more have jumped ship by now.
Where was my bike made?
Just some facts and info:
This was updated March 18, 2008 so even more have jumped ship by now.
Where was my bike made?
__________________
It may not be fancy but it gets me were I need to go.
https://www.jtgraphics.net/cyclist_bicycles.htm
It may not be fancy but it gets me were I need to go.
https://www.jtgraphics.net/cyclist_bicycles.htm
07-11-10 | 12:03 AM
#65
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,235
Likes: 92
From: San Diego
Well I guess the fact that I am half Chinese and my father's grandparents emigrated from China long ago means I know nothing of Chinese history and culture. Oh and also the fact that I went to school with a lot of Taiwanese whose families emigrated as well means I know nothing of the subject and I will keep believing what I want to believe.
07-11-10 | 12:23 AM
#66
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 629
From: Offthebackistan
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
07-11-10 | 01:27 AM
#67
Has coddling tendencies.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,360
Likes: 59
From: Topanga Canyon
Bikes: 2008 Blue RC8 w/ '09 Rival
07-11-10 | 06:24 AM
#69
Gluteus Enormus
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,245
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh, NC
Bikes: Yes
Since you're plugging numbers let's use them as an example. Yes, there is a difference between frames from all big name and OEM brands. The argument that can be made is that in the vast majority of cases the difference is not worth the $2900 premium some big names put on their bikes.
07-11-10 | 06:33 AM
#70
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
From: Houston,TX
Bikes: Giant Defy2, Soul Faith
I'm just surprised that even just doing light research on the subject of CF and bicycle manufacturing, bicycle reviews, etc., so many people who posted here seem to contradict what I have found. Again.....pls. use the Search function and see for yourself. The internet is a wonderful thing.
Since we're all citing sources now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
07-11-10 | 09:15 AM
#71
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Boat rudder.
Compass.
Gun powder.
Silk.
Pottery and ceramics.
Glass.
Kites.
Mirrors.
Seisometers.
Abacus.
Saddle stirrups.
Hypodermic needle.
Alcoholic beverages
Forks
Paper currency
Need I say more?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions
Fail at history.
[edit]
Oh I forgot to mention. I'm Taiwanese. And I can assure you that I wouldn't care if my 62cm Trek frame was built in Taiwan. I can also assure you Taiwan is as much a part of China as the US is part of Imperial Britain.
Compass.
Gun powder.
Silk.
Pottery and ceramics.
Glass.
Kites.
Mirrors.
Seisometers.
Abacus.
Saddle stirrups.
Hypodermic needle.
Alcoholic beverages
Forks
Paper currency
Need I say more?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions
Fail at history.
[edit]
Oh I forgot to mention. I'm Taiwanese. And I can assure you that I wouldn't care if my 62cm Trek frame was built in Taiwan. I can also assure you Taiwan is as much a part of China as the US is part of Imperial Britain.
That's why buying generic carbon frames are a good deal. Your getting a frame that is probably made by the same people who make the big name companies frames at a lower cost.
