I think the pad compound will have a greater effect on the brakes than anything else. The new Force brakes are very nice (very similar to Red). I haven't tried the combo yet, but i'd suspect that Force brakes w/the new Shimano pads would make a nice combo.

If you care about weight go with SRAM, if you don't go with Ultegra. Take the ergo stuff into account too. They're both very good, they both work well. The rest is purely subjective.

To me, Ultegra appears to be of higher quality, but that's perhaps because it's heavier (and I still ride SRAM for whatever that's worth).

Also, Shimano's new mess of new brakes not working with old shifters, and b-compatibility this with a-compatibility that is a pain. It's one of the reason's I moved to SRAM, it all works, and most of it will work with Shimano cranks, FD, wheelset.

Substantial comment and contribution fail.

For those talking about the front shifting of Shimano -- how much of that do you think might be due to the crankset?

In my case, I switched from a Truvativ crank to Shimano, with the same 105 FD and everything, and it shifted more smoothly and reliably. I don't think it was due to setup -- a front derailleur is probably the simplest drivetrain part to adjust -- but the crank and BB just worked better.

But, if you're using another crank with your Shimano setup and it shifts great, then never mind me. :D

It's enough for me to never touch a Shimano product again. I realize it's a previous generation 105, but I can't imagine a huge difference when they didn't change a great deal other than looks and how it brakes on the new system.

I'm just stating that some of these problems which I've had with my Shimano groupset, are common throughout all Shimano, and are not present in the SRAM grouppos. Hence the reason I personally will be changing.

I'm sorry but that's all I could think of after your comment. If you think stock Shimano brakes are the best, especially since you quoted 105 and Ultegra in specific, and not even dura ace, then you obviously haven't tried any other braking systems. Now, with some upgraded pads they are decent, but still there are various better options available.

You need to get out more.

Funny you should ask. I swore after upgrading to 6700 shifters on my previously all Ultegra SL group that it was the shifters. The front shifting was markedly improved. umd responded that he doubted that it could be the shifters themselves since as you state, the FD is a simple adjustment and the shifter, itself, has little to do with how well the FD shifts. I am using Ultegra SL cranks, so you may be right that this was a big factor along with the better adjustment that followed the shifter install.

What would these problems be again? I have NO problems with my all Shimano group.

I think I can guess: It's not SRAM.

Hood shape/feel, hard to brake/shift at the same time, shifting and nothing happens/have to shift again, constantly out of adjustment, etc. Some of that is the problems with my specific groupset, however some of those things won't change no matter the Shimano group I use.

Dude what is your deal? I'm sorry you have a shimano shifter up your arse, but I'm just trying to state my opinion in this thread like everyone else.

I just posted in this thread because some other dude said he hated his 105, and I agreed. And somehow you brought the thread back around to me.

Where did I say that stock Shimano brakes were the best?

[quoteIf you're going to make a bike with a frankengroup, why not go with Shimano 105 or ultegra brakes?]In my experience on numerous test rides, nothing stops as well as Shimano brakes.[/quote]

Where did I say there were the best? In my experience with stock Shimano, SRAM, Tektro, and very limited with Campy, brakes, Shimano were the best. All I did was ask a question and participate in the discussion. You, on the other hand, contributed nothing but a "Lol", which is almost the same as contributing nothing.

Furthermore, since when was this a thread about the best? The title of the thread is "Ultegra vs Force". If it was the best, then it would've been Dura Ace, Red or Super Record.

Furthermore, my post was in response to this comment from ptle:
Again, where is there any evidence that we were discussing 'the best'?

That's rich- you think you should be able to state your opinion without anyone arguing with you, and yet you felt that contributing 'Lol' to a question of mine was a legitimate response. Hypocritical much?

That other dude was me. I got your back bro. My 105 was constantly out of adjustment. I would adjust it so it would shift properly, ride ten miles and then each shift would result in the clackity-clack of the chain hopping around between three different cogs meaning I would have to stop, hop off, readjust the cable tension hop back on and ride ten more miles before the POS started f-ing up again. Sorry, not my idea of a good time.

Edit: I wouldn't go as far as to say I'll never touch anything Shimano again as I have 5610 pedals (that I love), a 105 front derailleur (which has been acting up recently), RS10 wheels and R086 shoes...

How many of people know how to properly setup a drive train? Maybe 2%? Judging from this thread, I'd say so.

I'm all for discussion about ergonomics, aesthetic, and even stiffness, but you are kidding yourself if you think that a bad front shift has much at all to do with the brand of equipment you are running. It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

Right. I'm a poor worker because I can't get 105 to stay properly adjusted and also the bike shop mechanics that I took it to who adjusted it only to have it come out of adjustment again are poor workers. I'm going to say that the common denominator is 105, not poor workers.

:popcorn

i'll chime in with my two cents

I currently run Ultegra 6700 on one bike, Rival/Ultegra mix on one bike, and my wife runs 105/tiagra on her bike.

I am still getting used to the double tap shifting but I like it. I would say I like it better than the shimano style but its different. I dont mind either style of shifting. Both shift reliably and both get the job done. If setup right there shouldnt be any shifting problems. Heck I dont have any problems on my wife's 105/tiagra bike. I setup it up when she first got it and shes put 1000 miles on it w/ no need for any adjustments. The bike shop is not always the end all be all of adjustments. Theres always small differences once you put load on the system. It may shift fine while on the stand but very minor tweaks might need to be made during road testing. I agree the shop may get very close but in my experience it always needs some additonal adjustments. I dont have too much experience with many shops b/c I do all my wrenching myself. Only experience is with new bikes or friends of mine who had their bikes "tuned" up.

I have rival brakes and ultegra 6700 brakes. I like the modulation and feel of the ultegra better.

I cannot compare the front shifting. I like the front shifting on my Ultegra 6700 so much thats what I have on my sram bike. I also have a Ultegra chain and cassette. This combo I believe works out really well b/c it's quiet and has the front shifting that I really like.

Ergonomics are pretty close among the two. The Shimano has a thicker bottom end while the sram seems thinner all along the hoods. Both work great for my small hands.

In overall shifting there is a little more play on the shimano while the sram has more feel. This I think is by design due to the double tap system.

In conclusion this is just babble but I like them both. I have Ultegra on my race bike but mainly because I didnt want to swap parts. I wouldnt mind having sram parts on it either. I would go with whichever shifting style your more comfy with. They both work and work well. Also consider pricing. When on sale ive seen Ultegra 6700 go in the 700ish range on some websites. While I was shopping my Sram build best deal I could find of force was high 800s.

on a side note. 105 and Tiagra work perfectly fine if setup properly. ;)
I didnt want to get into it but I had to comment on them because I've setup my wifes bike as well as a couple friends' bikes. Once they were setup they didnt really need any adjustment