Really? That makes me happy I chose Shimano, then. They always hang pointing up so I just have to drag my cleat over the top.

yea. i 've had them for 2 weeks now. i'm getting use to them now, i just kick them up with my toe and then quickly put my foot down. still, pretty tough for my first pair of clipless pedals.

Yep, just sweep your foot forward, catch the top, step down and click.

Yes, a lot of people will "shop" at a brick and mortar store, then buy elseware or online. I think this is fine if you go in with the intent that if you find what you are looking for, you will buy the product that the salesman is showing you. If you go in fully knowing that you won't buy it, then what you are doing is using up the salesman's time by implying that you might buy. If you told the salesman up front that you have no intention of buying from him, then it is likely he would move on to other customers. There are plenty of other sources of information from the manufacturer's web site, review sites and online forums. There is no real need to take up a salesman's time.

While "shopping" is done by a lot of people, I don't think it is very fair to the sales person. It is about respecting the other person's time and effort.

That's exactly my point. I know my LBS would match or come down slightly to match an online price and treat my like a loyal customer so of course I would.

And on a side note. I have no hard feelings here for anybody. A mature discussion like this makes the day go faster.

I appreciate everybody else's input as well. I'm glad a few people popped in to give feedback. I did initially consider going with two sided MTB clipless pedals but I'm just going to dive in head first out of the gate. I'm sure it'll be a rocky start but I'll get used it and figure it out.

Ok Got it. That makes sense.

No hard feelings here, either. I like these kinds of conversations. Every year, I have a discussion on pirated music with my students. It's fascinating to see the opinions and reasons.

I don't even know if I have time to get into that now. I may have to save that one for Monday.

I'm on the fence with that issue, so it's truly a source of entertainment.

Shall we get this rolling? I need some entertainment for the day. Fiance is going in for surgery tomorrow morning so I need to get my mind off it.

Alright, you choose a side and I'll argue the opposite. The thread is dead anyway, so nobody should care that it got hijacked.

Start with the easiest argument to think of, it's illegal.

Since I have a pretty strong tendency to pirate music, movies, etc I'll sit on the for side of it. This is going to be tough to argue since I do agree that is wrong in the general sense of it however it all depends on your position. I would never be the person perched in theatre projection booth with a camera and sound cables recording a movie for the sake of sharing it online. Nor would I be the one out buying a cd or what have you the day it came out with the intent of sharing it with the masses. I'm more the person that will sit back and scoop something once its been deemed "safe" from viruses, etc by the masses. While I would still call this stealing I can argue that I'm relatively small minnow in a pond full of dinner sized fish. I never share, never upload, and rarely seed torrents to protect myself. I did once get notice from the cable company telling me to stop but after a few months of being silent I haven't heard anything from them. I only get things that I can DL in an hour or two to minimize my risk but it does still exist. I wouldn't equate my actions to finding a $20 on the ground outside a bank and pocketing it. Is the best thing to do? No. But could things be worse? Yes. The fact is millions of people do this everyday and many of them are not malicious. Record, movie, software, etc companies need to realize that their products are ridiculously priced and do something about if they want to have a real shot at keeping business afloat. I love having original copies of things and owning them but every $10 I save on something I can get for free is better for me.

Is something immoral just because it's illegal? That would make a topic all itself.

back to my pedals being upside down!


j/k


i pirate all my music but if i find an album i particularly like, i may go out and buy it. or if the band is a small indie band, i'll go and buy the album. Other than that, i just support the band by going to their concerts.

Immoral and Illegal are separate things just like an ethical decision is usually a more sound one than a legal decision. That's not to say they aren't connected. I once read a quote that I reflect on from time to time. "If you don't want anybody to find out did something, don't do it." I think this a pretty good value to have and wish I could live my life so perfectly. It's something to strive for but a lot of times I find myself thinking that I should have approached things differently. As it applied to pirating things online. I don't know that I would be so afraid if people found out about. Assuming those people didn't work for the RIAA, a film company, etc.

There are many things I feel are overpriced. BMW cars, for example. Is it ok for me to just take one and not pay for it because I think they're charging too much? I wouldn't steal them off the delivery truck, but wait until the end of the model year after they've been test driven a bit.

You get to play both sides?

I'm going to pass on the immoral/illegal argument, because it could become it's own topic.

But downloading music is different from stealing a car. If you steal a car no one else can use that car. If you dl a song it doesn't prevent anyone else from listening to that song.

Also, IBTM.

I'll occasionally stream unlicensed (or at least I assume) tv shows that I missed in their airing that I can't find a legitimate source to stream (e.g. I missed the season 4 finale of Mad Men and AMC doesn't put their full episodes online, so I streamed that from megavideo), but that's about it. I don't have a dvr or other means to record shows (other than an old vcr) so I watch most shows I miss via hulu. With all the movies available to stream via Netflix (even if they're not particularly good) I don't see the need to download pirated movies. There are few movies that I'm that anxious to see (if I am, I'll see them at the theaters - the rest I let percolate in my queue until their turn comes). There was a time when I didn't have a tv and was living 800 miles away from my wife and I was lonely that I routinely streamed tv shows I shouldn't have. I knew it was illegal, but did it anyway.

Music, well, there's a bit more complicated of a story. When Napster first came out when it didn't occurt to me that it was any different than taping off the radio or making a mix tape for a friend (which I suppose are both illegal as well), I downloaded quite a few songs (well quite a few being relative as my laptop at the time only had a 4 gig hard drive). Once I became convinced it was illegal I stopped. Now I've sort of swung to the opposite extreme in that I don't like downloading mp3's, but prefer to buy the full album so I can own something tangible - typically buy all my cd's used off half.com or amazon or something unless at a concert so the artists really aren't getting anything more than if I'd pirated it. I still have a bunch of those first napstered mp3's though - 2 laptops later - and haven't made an effort to get the full cd version for most of them - some I have.

So I guess I'm saying that while I know it's wrong, it doesn't feel that wrong to me and fear of viruses and lack of time/interest is keeping me from doing more of it more than the fact that it's wrong. (Holy crap, I'm not sure I like how that sounds reading it back - does that make me a sociopath?)

I see your point but I think we're at two extremes here. grand theft auto is quite a different thing that violating a copyright law. Downloading media on the web will more than likely result in being sued by the owner of the material and would likely never land you in jail (I won't eliminate the possibility because our court system leaves too much to interpretation). Grand theft auto is a felony and would more than likely result in some jail time.

You do make a valid point though but I ask you this. If I don't want a BMW I can go buy a different car with similar functions for half the price. In regards to media, where does option come in. A cd either costs X amount or you don't buy it. A movie either cost X amount or you don't buy it. I know I'm making it a tad extreme but where are the controls for pricing in the media field. Everybody is charging the BMW price because nobody will make or sell a product at the Kia price.

As to music--illegal or not--taking something without paying for it is theft---unless the owner (the record company/artist depending on their deal) states it is free.

There is no argument other than that. There is attempted justification--but it is theft.

Nobody here said anybody was right or wrong. We're just having a discussion about it.

As am I. But you can't say it isn't theft. Like I said, you can come up with justifications, but there is not a position that it isn't theft.

Fair enough. I apologize if I wasn't clear. I understand it is theft and am not attempting to call it otherwise.

I would disagree. If you don't want a top 100 band CD, you can go buy a different CD from an Indie band or other freelance musician for less, sometimes even free. You're just expecting the BMW at the Ford price.


Like I said, I'd wait until the end of the model year, so it was one nobody wanted anyway. Plus, the manufacturer will just make another. But just for another angle, if enough people stole that song, the artist would stop producing songs because they aren't getting paid enough, so you don't really know which songs would have existed if it were not for pirated music.