NeoBinary

This one screams performance. I'd seriously look into this one.

teamawe

Strikes me that an argument could be made against all the numbers as scewed. Someone if Fla is surely more likely to die from a Huricane, whereas someone in Montana has about a 0.0000000 chance. =)

I hardly walk anywhere, I dont beleive that fact makes a case against using the Pedestrian deaths as a baseline for the population anymore then the others used. IE, the other items listed are affected by cross sections of the population the same as cycling would be.

I wear a helmet but have long questioned the validity of claims made for 'our' or the 'childrens' best interests. Someone is always getting paid. Follow the money.

jslopez

I have a Giro Monza, partly because of the relatively good reviews I seen/heard, second because I liked the grey and yellow color (hehe) and mostly because I personally don't see the justfication of spending another $50-100 more when it weighs just as much as the Pneumo (and the difference vs. the atmos is negligible IMO), with my short hair, I really don't feel hot with it and finally, and from what I've read, helmets (with the safety rating) ranging from $35-200 will protect your head jsut as good or bad however you may want to look at it.

Ofcourse everyone is free to get whatever they want and if they can afford to get the most expensive stuff then more power to you but following the lines of what Maj. Taylor said, it would suck if the general public is lead to believe that they are getting something "better" when in fact it's all just a marketting ploy.

Tanker

I certainly would shop around and try as many on that were available. Call the different LBS to see what size and brand they carry. Go to the helmets website and look at how many vents are available for what models. The manufactures should have detailed specs. for their models on the web. They also will have fit guides to at least get you to a ballpark size to look for. Here is Giro's:

https://www.giro.com/giro_cycling_specs_usa.pdf

I am not a manufacture rep, but I have experienced first hand how important a helmet can be. I do promote helmets when riding especially for my young son. I agree helmets can be very spendy but if it saves your noodle just once, you will not regret the expense. I took a spill going about 10mph in our neighborhood on the way to the store. A very short and low intensive ride. In fact I contemplated not wearing a helmet. I went to transition onto the sidewalk and the front tire just slipped out. Before I could react, I went head first hitting my right side into the flats of the side walk. The impact was violent and rung my bell a bit. I quickly got up, looked around to see if anyone saw me, readjusted my helmet, and was on my way. When I returned home and examined my helmet, I notice the foam was compressed about half that of the opposite side. It also cracked. I am not sure how much force would cause the helmet to deform like this. I tried compressing the good area of the foam with my fingers and barely made an impression. Its scary to think what would of happened if I wasn't wearing a helmet. Stats can be a useful tool, but I personally don't rely on them.

Cycliste

I agree, of all the injuries a cyclist can sustain after a bad crash, a non-fatal head injury is probably the worst and longest one to recover from.

Maj.Taylor

I will not begrudge you your opinion. However, if you read carefully you will see I did not criticize anyone for making a different choice. My criticism was against the preaching/evangelizing of wearing a helmet.

And I will always question any evangelist's or preacher's so-called analytical faculties. Given evangelism and preaching involve beliefs founded on faith, by definition analytical faculties and/or empiricism are excluded.

Maj.Taylor

And we see why most people abhor their statistics classes. They never really understand them. I've actually addressed, if only tacitly, virtually every criticism in my original posting. Take one of my research methods classes if you wish to continue the discussion and find out why you are incorrect.

Steelrider

I did. Your original post says nothing of those who preach or evangelize, but in the attempt to justify your postion with your statistical data, you end by strongly implying that those who have not sought out this data and/or did not come to the same conclusion have "been had" by the helmet industry. So no, you did not criticize anyone, you criticized everyone as chumps who have swallowed the marketing whole, not as rational people who have made individual decisions in their best interests. This is what I objected to. Thanks for listening.

miguelb

My grandfather used to say he had it made as not many people die at age 98.

Rich G

Hey go ahead, ride w/o a helmet.
We need more organ doners...
I think it's important to get the word out to kid to wear a helmet.
I've survived bike as well as motorcycle crashes. I gotta say if I were not wearing a brain case I wouldn't be writting this..

Maj.Taylor

Precisely. Kids absolutely should wear helmets. The helmet companies don't tell you that most deaths and injuries are sustained by kids. Instead, they make everyone think they're as likely to need one as a kid. And that's what Mark Twain meant by "lies, damn lies, and statisics."

P.S. -- I am an organ donor. I assume you are, too.

Steelrider

It's a little like buying shoes, in that you need to buy the one that fits. That said, there is some technology involved in helmet design for impact protection. The only time that I went down, the rear quarter of the helmet (Giro Boreas-out of production) crushed nearly flat and the polystyrene inner liner cracked nearly in half, while the outer shell was intact. Without it, seriously injured or dead. With it, not even a bump on the head (some back rash and a huge knot on the elbow though...). Point being that, like cars, helmets are made to crumple and absorb the impact so your brain doesn't have to.

BHSI/ANSI/SNELL ratings are probably the only "official" sorts of ratings that you want to pay attention to, but there are a ton of options out there within that range which would serve you equally well. Is a $25-40 dollar Giro helmet on last-year's clearance substantively less safe than a $125-140 2005 Giro Pneumo? Not really likely. So pay attention to stuff like weight/vents/fit/comfort/adjustability and you'll do fine.

collegeskier

To correct you, I did take a stats class and did not abhor it. As for research methods I have those pretty much down as I am in the final writing of my masters thesis in Structural Engineering. I went back and reread your post and no you did not address the concerns that John or I made. Potentially better stats would be death per passanger mile. Which in case you don't know makes space travel the safest by far form of transportation. A combination of deaths per passanger trip, per passanger mile, the statistic you quoted, and the number of people who participate in the activity per year. Since each stat is statistically flawed. Actually the stats you should look at number of incidents where a helmet limited the amount of injury incurred. That is all that really matters. Reading the stories here you see people that surely would have been injuried without a helmet. I put on a seatbelt whenever I get in a car, never swim alone, wear a helmet skiing, and take other precautions, never had any incidents but will continue to take those precautions cause you never know. Plus my brain is my far the thing I have invested the most time and money into so I will keep wearing a helmet and I think everyone should but hey if you don't want to that is your own decision and if you want to "justify" it with stats then do it but the ones you have quoted do nothing to justify your decision, but apparently it makes you feel better. Oh and if I don't wear a helmet I would lose my girlfriend and have to deal with my parents, wearing a helmet is much easier then that.

Master Cylinder

Interesting member ID and caricature Major Taylor...What prompted that choice?

Maj.Taylor

I was not looking to "justify" anything. However, I did use the data to support my position. I have yet to tell anyone not to use a helmet. That point seems to be escaping you.

Furthermore, I cannot prevent you from putting words (i.e., chumps) in my mouth. Did you read a subsequent posting where I made clear my point about preaching?

That said, the helmet industry has used very skewed/biased data to sell helmets. I cannot help the fact that information upsets you. (And somewhere online, there are a couple of very valid studies underscoring that point.) Statistically, the people who need helmets are kids and inexperienced riders. About that, there is zero doubt. Yes, there are anecdotal stories that "support" others' decisions to wear a helmet, yours included. However, they are no more compelling than the person who will not wear a seat belt because they know someone who was killed because they in fact did use a seat belt. I don't see anecdotes, only data. Sorry.

Maj.Taylor

Why? I am Maj.Taylor of the internet's early days. That is a line drawing of the original Marshall "Major" Taylor. I decided many years ago that a great champion would not be forgotten, as was his greatest fear being a black man far ahead of his time. Everyone has heard about Jackie Robinson, but Major Taylor preceded him by half a century. He is virtually unknown, even today. (There is the velodrome, however.)

He was a world champion in 1899 and a U.S. National Champion in 1900. After accumulating great wealth as the premier cyclist of his day and racing the world over, he died penniless and was buried in a pauper's grave. The Schwinn family moved him to a well-marked resting place after finding out one of the world's greatest sportsmen and cyclists had died a virtual unknown. (For that reason alone, I own a Schwinn now.) He was indeed a great man.

hlweyl

I got an A in my statistics class thank you very much. I'm sure you did well also and we both realize that statistics teaches us that there are many ways to 'spin' data, charts, graphs, etc.

After thousands of miles on my bike as well as years of riding motorcycles without incident, I too, have been tempted to forego my helmet. It's not a matter of if you will wreck, but when. It happened to me 7 weeks ago and was left with broken ribs, clavicle, and a concussion. I still have no memory of the wreck but apparently a little separation in the asphalt grabbed the front wheel and pulled it to the left. I went down hard on my right side. I wish I had snapped a pic of my helmet before I tossed it to show you, I don't doubt that I would have been killed with that kind of impact leaving my kids fatherless. You would do well to get rid of the "helmets are for the inexperienced" attitude.

I don't know why you choose not to wear a helmet. They are not that much of a burden. I don't know how the laws vary state to state for bicycles, but many states force you to wear helmets for motorcycles. People tend to think it's their right to not wear one, and that is right, but what they don't consider is a hard enough blow to their head and they end up in the hospital on life support racking up thousands of dollars in bills that get passed along to taxpayers.

Anyway, I hope major that you do not take my post as an attack as it is not intended that way. Best of luck.

Rich G

Yes, I am in fact an organ donor.
Did you know that I was refering to the comon name given to helmet-less riders of both bi and motor cycles by ER truma docs?
BTW Kids learn by example...

operator

Hahhaha, ahahhahah!

Maj.Taylor

Yes, as I have tried to make clear by quoting Mark Twain, data can be massaged in many ways. Point taken. That is my position regarding the helmet industry. They have engaged in data manipulation and taken advantage of certain "inadequacies" of the human mind. (That is purely scientific, not personal. The mind does break down in certain decision scenarios. A Nobel prize was awarded to an American, Daniel Kahneman, whose lifetime of work with his research partner, Amos Tversky, confirmed that.)

I do not wear a helmet because it is statistically improbable I will ever need one. Does that mean it's impossible? Of course not. I still keep my fingers crossed after 25+ years of cycling, and with many falls and racing crashes. In only one did my head seem to be in danger of hitting the ground, but I was fully aware of my direction of fall and actually moved my body in such a way as to have my head not make contact with the road. Jeesh, but you wouldn't believe the bruise my lower abdomen took. That hurt for weeks.

I truly am sorry to hear about your crash. I am pleased you were wearing a helmet. And when I ride a motorcycle, I also wear a helmet. No law is needed for me to do that. Many more potentially dangerous/deadly factors come into play with more direct interaction with other motorized vehicles and at much higher speeds. I don't need to see your helmet. I've seen many from bad crashes. However, they do not change the statistics. (Even if a coin comes up heads 10,000 times in a row, the likelihood of it coming up heads the next time remains 50-50. I'm certain you remember that from your stats class.)

Helmets are indeed for the inexperienced and young--statistically speaking. Yes, we've seen TdF riders die while not wearing a helmet, but think about the hundreds of thousands of miles ridden, across many decades, without incident. That's the experience factor. The human mind is a strange black box. Immediacy is a very powerful decision factor. The death of a rider, and its immediate impact, carries far more weight than the statistics. However, that death does not invalidate the statistics.

And finally, why would I take your position on the issue as an attack? (But it is quite clear others feel differently about my position, and feel themselves attacked. ) I always get the evangelizing, not unlike yours or others' here. I expect it--but do dislike it, which is far short of feeling attacked. However, it does nothing to change my mind. I am pure empiricist. Show me different data and I'll make a different decision. Mind you, I've looked at all the data I can find. The numbers simply aren't there.

Maj.Taylor

I caught your drift. I just didn't buy into it. And why do you think I care a hoot about kids and setting an example? I have no kids--on purpose. (Snip, snip.) I don't even like the little buggers. They aren't even allowed in my house. (Yes, I'm very serious about that.) Setting an example for your kids is your job, not mine.

And haven't we gone quite far enough off-topic? You will not change my mind, and quite frankly, I was making no attempt to change anyone else's. I merely stated a position--that I knew would bring out the best in people.

DXchulo

I'm definitely not going to tell anyone that they should wear a helmet if they don't want to, but the fact that not many people die from cycling accidents doesn't mean that wearing a helmet is useless.

Think about it this way, if you're going down on your bike at a high speed (which may not even be your fault, no matter how skilled you are), would you rather have a helmet on or not? I crashed once and landed right on my helmet, and I'm pretty glad I had a helmet on that day, and I've been extra sure to wear mine ever since that day.

collegeskier

Well I guess I don't have to worry about Darwinism then. Do you have the statistic that I mentioned earlier as in per trip and per passager mile. I would not say that I am trying to change your mind I am just debunking your very poor use of statistics. Also statistic don't really mean you should not use a helmet. That is why I said justification.

collegeskier

Here is a link to Snell information. It was conducted by Johns Hopkins so I would say it is fairly trusted. You don't even need to read their opion parts to get the data. These are much more telling statistics. I would like to read the actual report but here is the start.
https://www.smf.org/articles/injury.html

Rich G

Guess what?

I don't have or want kids either, I do once in a while let them in my house.
I only said that in response to your statment about kids needing to wear helmets...
Don't were a helmet, it's your right.
Just know that if/when you crash(no one plans to), you can survive and recover from just about any thing with the notable exception of a good hard blow to the head...