Relax, don't do it..... Great song, thanks for reminding me!

Bladed spokes feel slower to me too, meaning the old fashioned really wide ones. I liked the Wheelsmith AE (aero) spokes back in the day but felt that the wheels got a bit twitchy. With the various aero spoked wheels I've had (Sapim spokes) I feel like the front end of the bike doesn't track like I expect it to. It's more me than the wheel, but if I have an excuse, i.e. broken spoke, I'll relace the wheel with round spokes. I have NOT felt this way with the Stinger6s but I haven't really been doing all out flat sprints.

As far as wheels and such... after a later-in-the-Series race at Bethel (where I did much better than the earlier races) I compared notes on the finish with a friendly rival competitor. He and I both like the sprint there, we both raced head-to-head there many times, and I rarely beat him. He's a very, very strong rider, uses "practical" equipment (CAAD8 plus carbon aero tubulars). He's a pragmatic racer.

Anyway, on that particular week I improved dramatically in the finish, winning the sprint rather than placing 5th or 8th or whatever. I commented to him that I just got some significantly lighter wheels (DV46 tubulars, versus Eurus clinchers). I made an off-hand comment along the lines of, "I think they made a 20 foot difference in the sprint". He turned to me and said, "I think that's about right. It's the difference between placing and winning this sprint. A lot of guys think we're idiots when we talk like this but we both know this sprint and we know how wheels can affect it." I started noting his wheel choices and started seeing that he's very conscious of what wheelset he runs at races.

Having done that sprint, oh, about 110 times in races, I can vouch for the fact that wheels help me there, given the same bike. The lightest aero wheels are best, seconded by aero wheels (based on speed approaching sprint), followed by light wheels.

cdr

All other things being equal, Campagnolo Record or Super Record hubs make wheels fast in my experience. Of course, 105 and Cyclone are the fanciest non-Campy hubs I've run.

If you can send me some 32 hole Dura Ace and Superbe Pro hubs, I'd be happy to run some tests for you.

Oh and whatever the fancy Sram hubs are called. Red, is it?

Awww, surely Jon Stewart can hook me up with some Superbe Pro.

Well, yeah, but really I'm expecting lower effort at the same pace. 2 bikes set up the same, except one with the Bonti's and the other with handbuilds (Alchemy hubs). My HR is consistently 10-15% higher at the same pace on the Bonti's. I'm expecting that to come back down with the new wheels. If it doesn't, then there may be an alignment issue with the frameset and it isn't the wheels at all.

Ok, define 'fast'.

What you expect to see and reality are not necessarily the same thing.

People buy really expensive cars expecting it to somehow make them a better driver, that doesn't mean it happens.

OMG... I have a set of Race XXX lites sitting in the garage I keep for climbing. Typically, I use Williams System 30s. Note to self...next time riding with women, change to Race XXX lites.

Some expectations are realistic, some are not.

I guess I'm still looking at things from an "improve my performance" perspective. By best pace over my long solo rides is still a tad under a 20 mph avg. Still working on all the issues that will help me pick up my solo pace, not so much conserve energy. Although I have my eyes on a 200+ mile ride/race next fall and it involves a lot of climbing. A light comfortable bike will be my priority for that.

I'll bite, fast to me means being about to get away from what ever dog is chasing me!

That's sounds pretty good to me. My fastest solo century was 17 mph.

I guess I'm slow and satisfied with it, though.

I've ridden cheap bikes in the snow and noticed that after a full winter, I can't coast as far. So, my impression is the hubs have a lot to do with it.

Shoot, that's plenty fast for that distance. The 209 miler I've got my eye on requires an average of 16 mph to complete it before dark. That's going to be tough for me with all the mountains involved. I suck at hills.

That's not shabby at all. I don't think I've gone that fast for a solo century.

That's odd. I can ride along all day at 35 mph with D/A but Super Record slows me down to a 33 mph cruising speed.

You obviously have not ridden high end wheels.

Yes & no or maybe marginally. It seems like many hubs are smooth but the wheels don't necessarily have "kick ass" speed. I have heard hub having high flanges adding some sort of stiffness? Mavic Ksyriums use a Zicral alloy that make them noticeably stiffer than your average wheel. I haven't ridden Zipps or Hed wheels but I'm sure they use their own strategies for achieving power transfer responsiveness...

This is the best trolling in a while.

So how would these variables show up when comparing Dura Ace 7850's vs. Rolf Elans' vs Ksyrium SL's?

It depends on the color of the troll's hair.

I'm sure they are both awesome wheels, but why? torridal shape, 50mm aero, cx rap sapim spokes, swiss hubs, high tension etc.? Can hand made wheels touch either model of zipp or edge examples above?

So are there people arguing that wheels and hubs have little effect or no on overall efficiency?

If so, I find that extremely difficult to believe, just from having a rudimentary understanding of physics...

The point is that even bad hubs aren't that bad. Sort of like how ceramic bearings probably do work better, but marginally at best.