My last bike was built-up from a frame, with components I specified. It didn't occur to me to ask whether they would build the thing up for me just so I could take it for a spin. I really didn't even think to ask. If they had had another bike in the same model, in the same size, I would have taken it out, but at the time I didn't even have my bike clothes with me. So I certainly would have done a short test ride, if it were available, and convenient, but it wouldn't have been part of my purchase decision.

seems like he could have figured out whether he liked brifters and whose brifters he preferred.

Fixed for you.
Seriously, we are talking about making a purchase that will last perhaps 5-10 years based on what, 30 minutes of testing with enormous variations?
If this was indeed informative and predictive, then all clinical trials would be rendered unnecessary.

But you do. See above. How is buying a frame without riding it any different from buying a bike without riding it? Most of us know how the groupsets work (or can test those easily enough on a trainer). Most of us who know enough to build up our own bikes probably have a good idea about what wheels do what, what saddles we prefer, how to get the bike to fit us, etc.

So I do find the above two statements incongruous.

V.

I'll cut you a deal and take it for free. No need to thank me - that's the kinda guy I am.

But this discussion is increasingly going nowhere.

It is pretty simple - I think we need to differentiate between the benefit of a test ride when it comes to getting objective data about the bike vs subjective "ease of mind" benefits.

Assuming that you start a test ride on a bike that is more or less the right size and the right type (racing geo, upright geo, touring geo or whatever), then there is enough variability between wheels, set-up, etc. that a test ride doesnt really help you that much when it comes to understanding what is the real difference between various frames.

However, test riding a race geo vs an upright geo with longer chainstays will give you an idea of which geometry you prefer.

What we are all ignoring is that for a lot of people, a test ride gives them some subjective comfort that they are buying the "right" bike. It might be based on perception, a placebo or the 15 psi difference between the tire pressure, but hey, it is still a reason to pick one over the other. As long as the buyer is happy, so what?

And yeah, for those buying the bike as-is, they *might* know if the saddle is an ass-hatchet or the fit really sucks. Sure, they might find the test ride comfy and then find problems when they do longer rides (as happened to me when I bought my first road bike, a Trek 1.2), but atleast there are SOME problems they can eliminate.

FWIW, I find Roadwarrior's method to be the most practical at putting people on the right bike.

Test rides are what I based my buying decision on frames. Several years ago I started out wanting to buy a combo Ti and CF frame. I took several long rides on Seven, Merlin and Serotta frames. Then I tried all CF and all Ti. The last Ti was over a three day weekend. I wouldn't have known what felt best with a 20 or 30 minute ride.

I think you're confusing buying pieces with a complete bike. We all buy pieces of stuff without trying it. That's just managed risk. When it comes to framesets however I'll usually have ridden it as a complete bike first usually at an LBS sometimes a friends bike. China direct framesets is an exception and is much more scary as returning it is very painful.

But we're talking mainstream production complete bikes here which is a far cry from bits and pieces. If someone is putting a bike together for me then I expect perfection before I take delivery and the only way to know that is inspect and ride it. Cheers.

Sure, a three-day weekend test ride is something altogether different and you are lucky to have gotten it.

When I think "test ride", I think of a one-time ride, ranging from 10-30 min.

No, I am not confusing the two and my whole post was geared towards trying to explain why I found the two statements incongruous. Obviously, I didnt do a very good job so let me take another stab at it :)

I am like you, in the sense that I buy frames and put the bike together. My point is that if you or I know enough about bikes to assemble a frame piece by piece, we probably have a good idea WHY we are putting on the parts that we are and know what we want/dont want on the complete bike as well.

If you expect perfection in a bike purchase, then ok, I can see your point. But to me, it doesnt make sense to buy that way. Maybe as is, Bike A feels better than Bike B. But with a different saddle/stem/whatever, Bike B would be better. So if I just picked whichever bike feels better "as is", I'd get Bike A when a small change would get me a better bike in Bike B.

My point is that a lot of the small items that affect fit can be changed and for guys who are used to building up their own bikes and aware of their preferences, this is easier to do on a fully-built up bike as well - and so a test ride is probably LESS useful than to someone who is just starting out and buying everything as a total package.

V.

Sort of off topic, does the shop sell that bike as new? What if it has been on many "three-day weekend" tests?

Why does someone need to be an expert to be able to judge what they like? That's like telling someone with an unsophisticated palate they should let others order for them at a restaurant since they don't understand what they're getting anyway.

You know if you like something and you know if you don't -- it doesn't matter if your reasoning for liking/disliking something is "correct". A good salesperson can be useful during the process, but is anyone here going to seriously suggest that sometimes they're not just trying to move what they have on the floor? Does anyone here actually think that all bike shop staff are knowledgeable on everything they sell? Or that they don't sometimes misread the customer?

Many people literally can't tell the difference between a comfort road bike, a CX bike, a touring bike, or a racing bike just by looking, let alone make finer distinctions. But if they respond to something, they'll know right away. If anyone tried to tell me that it would be pointless to let me try something because I wouldn't know the difference anyway, that would be my cue to leave. If nothing else, it tells me what service I could expect and how useful they'd be when I had questions later.

The resistance to test rides here doesn't mesh up with what I see in the real world. All the shops I frequent encourage them as do virtually all shops I've taken others to when helping them buy bikes. I've turned down many offers to take test rides, and I'm not sure if anyone has ever refused to let me take a bike I was interested in trying for a spin.

To any n00bs still reading this thread -- expert advice can be invaluable, but don't ever let anyone tell you what you like.

....and now you know why I don't sell bikes. Ton of investment in inventory up front. Customers demand the ability to look at, touch, feel, take home and massage the specific combination they are looking for. Try to attain enough, in their own mind, objective testing data to allow them to become guest writers for Consumer Reports, only to end up wanting something that will have to be ordered anyway.

As you can see - even with a pile of people all of the same mindset (hey we like bikes and we want to buy them and we want to buy higher end road ones) you can't even get remote agreement about expectations.

I am definitely different than most people though. I await the annual buyers guides only to see what component packages everyone is using and how OEM's are making tradeoffs to achieve certain price points, and to see where those guys have pinned price points this season, etc. Sure I geek out over an uber high end rig, but in general I forget it as soon as I put the magazine down. There are lust worthy and new technical edge rigs every year for the last 25 or so that I have been in this game. The good innovations tend to stick around.

I think people really overthink the whole bike/frame thing. Geometry, wheels and tires make the largest difference in how a bike feels at any given moment. Geometry determines how well a bike will do at certain tasks. High end bikes are very similar to each other. Buy the one that makes you want to ride it every time you see it.

The vast majority of people that come into a shop are intimidated and our/my job in a huge shop like ours with hundreds of bikes on the retail floor is to uncomplicate it for them...especially in road bikes. Indeed you do not have to be an expert to know what you like....but I can lead you through a series of questions to help me learn what you want...and then I can show you the bike and explain WHY that's the case because that's my job...to be the expert. People come to any business seeking a solution to a problem and in the shop it's my job to find the best solution. But I am also going to offer you several potential solutions, but also show you why these are the best answers to your question. But anyone that TELLS someone what they do or should like is a fool.

I will NEVER move what's on the floor to get it out of the store...even if I get a spiff. I'll never sell to a spiff. Do that, the customer figures out it's the wrong bike....shop gets a reputation. Idiots do that. In my case, all I am trying to do is find out what they want, figure out how big it needs to be and how much they want to spend, and show them why this or a couple of solutions are best...now ride it and you tell me.

No one is putting down the value of a test ride...certainly not me because it's an important part of the selling process, but to have to take it on a weekend trip is a bit ridiculous. And the results of the poll support that position. I read the post about having to ride long distances to figure this out...pros don't do that...my point is that if that's what you need, fine, but most shops won't do that and it appears most people are much more realistic about how much of a test they need. I ride the new stuff, half mile tops, that's all I need, but thats just me. You can ride it, just don't leave the property.

Here's the problem...the smaller shops are happy to get help , they pay crap and train even less. In other words, in most all businesses you get what you pay for. So the place where I am is happy because I do this for fun as I own a business, and am experienced and will do everything I can to help you undersand the bikes and why certain ones are better than others for what you want to do.

BTW...the hardest part for me is not overwhelming people with lots of information. I have to remember to give them the basics and let them lead me if they want to know more. But I teach selling so I am pretty good at getting people's trust rapidly and that's really what people want. A relationship.

Couldn't agree more.

Add the quality of the frame tubes....the right geometry with entry level tubing will still not feel great, but that's where the budget part comes in...and the touching part...I always crack up at the gawkers (especially on a rainy Saturday when they can't ride) walking up to a bike and suqeezing the front tire. I've always been tempted to ask why they are doing that.

I'm sure one of your least favorite moments is when a customer says "well, (competing bike shop) said..." when you know it's a load of BS.

But I still didn't see you address how someone would tell if a person just intending to be a recreational rider would prefer an aggressive or a relaxed setup without the parking lot test ride. Like I said before, there are many non-racers who ride together, and the styles of bikes they ride vary like you wouldn't believe. Many of them have stories about how their first bike, suggested by a shop employee, was a horrible fit.

I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. You're just the only one who has the inside view on this subject, and you're abviously doing something right.

As a side note, this poll seems to suggest that you are turning away less than 10% of your prospective sales by not offering an extended test ride. If you feel that such rides would cost you about 10% of your net profit (considering discounts, damages, and labor cleaning and reshelving bikes... did I miss anything?), then you have a strong case for your point.

No, it's one of their demo bikes. It's a large shop with four stores. They sell them with a big discount periodically.

This is an interesting topic I discuss with my wife from time to time. As an interior designer, she often is disgusted by when people do with their homes, telling me how it's "bad design". I remind her that she once said her job was to make a space that someone enjoys being in, and that if they enjoy what they've done with it, it doesn't matter how good or bad it is. I try to remind myself the same thing when I look at contemporary art.

So that plays into one of RoadWarrior's points. How many demo bikes do you have to keep on hand to offer such a luxury? You'd want to have one in every size from every model frame you offer, right? That's a heck of a lot.

It'd be nice if I were unfamiliar with the gruppo to be able to take a bike on a quick 5min jaunt, but besides that it doesn't much matter.

Why would they not want to test it out? Frankly, the majority of riders I see have no clue on the differences and are eager to try them out. Very sledom does someone not want to try out the bike. We encourage that. Just stay in the lot.

Regarding the test rides....I've had two customers in seven years want an extended ride. I have no idea how many people I've worked with in that time. Wouldn't even venture a guess. It's not a problem.

...chuckling..."Here's our demo Madone. It's a 54, you need a 58, but enjoy yourself." Even if they take it out, all they are doing is tearing up the bike and won't buy one.

We rent bikes. All types. We keep one model of road, MTB, etc. That's about 40 bikes right there. Road, they are Defy 2's. I think we have 10...that's ten grand in road bikes.

It seems the wildest suggestions seem to come from folks that don't fully get the ramifications of the suggestions.

This store has about 25 or so between their 4 locations. Most are 56 or 58. One manager told me they don't lose much money on them because they sell them at cost later in the year. But they also demo any bike in any size - just not for an all day ride.

I think test rides are a waste of time and they can mislead you into thinking a great bike sucks or a sucky bike is awesome. If anything, test rides tell you more about the LBS than the bike itself. First of all, the bike won't be set up perfectly for you. Second, there will never be the exact same amount of headset spacers, same seat, same pedal position, etc between two bikes. For example, if you ride a bike and feel like the reach is off, they aren't going to flip/swap a stem for you. You are going to get off the bike and think, "I don't know, the geometry just feels off."

It's a waste of everyone's time. Just do your homework, read reviews, ask owners, and find a bike that has the features you want. Get a proper fitting and buy the bike. Done.

Got it. You did in fact already say that. Sorry.



That's what threw me. StanSeven was actually implying that he DOES exactly that. Your little chuckle made me laugh even harder when he mentioned that they are mostly 56 and 58, and even 25 bikes would take up a good bit of space. I know he said he has 4 large locations, but most shops aren't like that.

Honestly, I think it would be great for a shop to ONLY stock demo bikes in the high end department, let customers try them out for long rides (with a basic but not half-ass fitting), and then order whatever they decide felt the best. The problem is with today's instant gratification fetish, it would never work. It does seem to work for people buying full custom (Serrotta, Land Shark, etc.), though.