Surferbruce

it's interesting because the surfboard industry has been battling this one out for some time. nowadays 90% of all boards are computer milled, finished by a grunt, then signed with the masters name. there will always be those skilled artists and craftsmen who do their thing for the love of it but it'll have to cost a price.

operator

How about just use your goddamned brain.

Maj.Taylor

I consulted for George Gruhn of Gruhn Guitars in Nashville many years back. I doubt George would think any primarily machine-made guitar was worth its weight in salt. And, those were certainly not the ones he could sell to an Alan Jackson or a collector for $10,000 to $25,000. Put differently, Cannondale and Giant make "reputable" bikes, but they aren't a Sachs or a Moulton. But just like a Sachs or a Moulton, they can get the job done. (Mario or Laurent didn't seemed to be slowed down by either, respectively.) However, they also lack that certain je ne sais quoi that differentiates the very best from the rest of the pack. Might you agree?

Maj.Taylor

I do. My goal is to always have the spell-check come back clean. However, being a professional, why take the chance of making a simple mistake and looking bad? Remember, it's a spell-checker, not a speller.

(BTW, the grammar in your question is incorrect. It should be "using" your goddamned brain. And, given it is a question, it should end with a question mark, not a period. )

Did someone say something about a brain?

531Aussie

I may have missed the point, but if we're going down the: "a guitar (or a bike) is a tool first and an ornament 2nd", then I agree.

I used to work in a cover band (yeah, I know, I AM a sell-out ), and I would occasionally
rush into the local guitar shop on the day of a gig, and frantically say something like:
"QUICK, i need a new volume pot 'coz I've just melted this old one 'coz I was soldering an extra pickup in the middle -- and have you got any white gaffa tape to cover the whole I gouged in the scratch plate
to fit in a new five-way switch?"

So I'd be standing there with my $1500 US made Jackson, with wood chips hanging out from
under the scratch plate, and wires all over the place, and these w@nker guitar repair guys,
who NEVER did a gig in their life, would look at me as if I'd just torched the Mona Lisa!! So,
they'd patronise the crap out of me, humour me, and send me on my way, 'high faluting' as I left.
"FU*K 'EM...W@nkers", I'd be thinking. Had they not seen what Steve Vai would do
to a guitar to get it "right"? JeeeZ!!



Anyway....there's another perfect example: you reckon a surfer gives a stuff
what his board looks like, or what it does?


By the way, Don, I've got a nice, early 80s San Dimas "parts" Charvel (Strat headstock)...if your interested.

VintageSteve

Agree 100%...just as Dave Moulton's earlier post which compared machined guitars to hand-built ones. My point being to support Dave's comparison, that there are many guitars (like bike frames) out there that are in fact machined. (Someone had said this was impossible).
And (like you stated) they don't compare to hand built.

531Aussie

Guitars: tools or ornaments?

This is what Steve Vai did to his favourite guitar to get it "right" for him

https://www.jemsite.com/axes/model/charvel2.htm

He Superglued a perspex guard to raise the resting height of his right hand.

He bandsawed out the lower cutaway to facilitate access to the high frets.

Then he gouged holes in the body behind the Floyd Rose so he could pull up more on the whammy bar.

HIS GUITAR WAS A TOOL

531Aussie

If you're talking about acoustics, then yes, but if you're talking about electrics, I can't necessarily agree, especially if you're talking function.

Electric geeetars ain't rocket science; it's just a few slabs of wood thrown together with
a truss-rod, some fret wire, some simple electronics, and a bit of hardware.

If you buy a Taiwanese guitar, it's less likely to be good, but it's still possible that you'll get
a decent one.

If you get 10 hand made US Jacksons, chances are, 8 of them will be very good, and two will
be average. If you select 10 Taiwanese Charvels, chances are, 4 will be very good, 3 will be
average, and 3 will be complete junk.

So, machine, or Taiwanese made isn't necessarily a guarantee of junk

VintageSteve

...and so the bike also is. His 'tweaking' is perfectly acceptable...
But I don't think Yo-Yo Ma would do anything so defacing/destructive to his prized cello.

A really fine bike, like a fine guitar, is at it's best when in the hands of a master. How that master uses it is up to him.

531Aussie

"TWEAKING"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!

He used a bandsaw, chisels, and Super Glue!!!!!!

e-RICHIE

want to see how it's done?
get this film:

JAMES D'ACQUISTO
The New Yorker Special- Handcrafting a Guitar

these folks have it:
www.jklutherie.com

e-RICHIE

don d.

Are you trying to say that bike tubes are not mitered in sophisticated machinery and all the threads are cut by hand because this would be the direct comparison to the points you made. That the tubes are custom drawn in the builders shop and he casts the lugs himself? I guess a bike would not have soul or life if the builder didn't hand file the miters and if they used investment cast fixtures that require virtually no filing??

My post drew a comparison between guitar assembly and bike frame assembly, not how the tubes are drawn, necks cut, or whatever.

Of course many custom guitar builders hand plane and sand tops, hand mold sides, etc...but few still cut necks without modern machine tools. That is just a waste of time. Many custom shops also mold sides in quantity and CNC tops, necks and headstock for preliminary preparation.

But a guitar cannot be assembled by a machine as some bike frames can be welded by automated torches on assembly lines. Since the glueing of a guitar and the brazing of a frame are so critical to the performance, this is a valid and direct comparison.

And Ramirez builds acoustic classical and flamenco guitars. A bit different than an electric guitar with numerous electronic accessories that affect the sound. An acoustic guitar and a bike frame seem much more equivalent for comparison purposes.

Dave Moulton

First of all smile when you say that.

Why wood any won knot use spell-check when they right sum thing? It shows me miss takes I mite have maid and I no four shore their are know miss spelled words hear.

VintageSteve

To get back to the thread...
Lance has always said he rides the same bike anyone can purchase from Trek.
Many Italians ride Cannondale and Shimano (because they feel it works better).
As Major Taylor and others have said, if you're racing, you ride what you are given. And as Dave Moulton pointed out, it's that rider, you, that is the most important factor.
Today many riders and racers have nothing else to compare today's bikes to, except today's bikes. And most aren't going to buy a custom frame because of the expense, and because Lance doesn't ride one.
To me it is much more important how you ride the bike anyway. No matter what someone is on, I first notice how good their form is. I think it is that standard, or expectation of oneself, that is important. It's also something we can always work on.
I think if my wife's grandfather and I were able to go for a ride together, and he wore modern clothing, he wouldn't look out-of-time, or out-of-place, even if he was on his original bike.

Maj.Taylor

Question(s) for e-RICHIE and Dave M.: What are your opinions of frame-integrated headsets? (Is that what they're called?) Technological improvement, or cost-saving for manufacturers*, or another way to lock the rider into proprietary parts, and even a new frame if damaged? What about the impact on the custom builder? The impact on headset manufacturers like Chris King? Are tube sets now available with those "flared" ends? And e-RITCHIE, are they requested by your customers?

Quite frankly, I've yet to pay any attention whatsoever to this new "development." (Yea, my bad.) I'm entirely clueless on this one. Please answer only as little or as much for which you have time or desire to respond. TIA for your thoughts on the subject.

*I've heard some manufacturers actually use plastic parts somewhere/somehow in a place I'd think there would be significant stresses.

e-RICHIE

i think they look exceptionally cool on the new factory made
type frames - completely seemless - a great aesthetic.
i also think they're a solution to a problem that never existed.

time will tell whether they have technological merit or not.

not that it matters, and it's a related issue, but i feel the same
way about 28.6mm fork columns; they're necessary for nonferrous
materials but are not rational for folks still interested in building
their own forks along with their frames, as opposed to getting on
the phone and calling "forks-r-us".

e-RICHIE

feltdude

[QUOTE=Dave Moulton]When I was in the bike business in the 1980s through the early 1990s any self respecting roadie would not be seen dead on a Trek or Cannondale, and Giant!QUOTE]

A lot of people don't want to buy things from foreign companies if they can help it. So if an American company makes an equal or better product, lots of people will go for it.

Lance Armstrong doesn't hurt Trek's business.

Lastly, they've just been making better bikes lately?

Dave Moulton

The fact that José Ramirez did not believe his guitars had a life or soul does not make it so. Had anyone asked me in the 1980s if my bikes had soul I would have laughed at them and told them they were full of sh*t.

But back then I was a perfectionist, which led to my success as a frame builder but self hatred and anger as a person. My perfectionism was caused by abuse not only from my father but by the British school system; a system that beat down kids, and used sarcasm and ridicule as well as physical abuse. If you have seen the Pink Floyd movie “The Wall” you will know what I mean. That movie touched me deeply and helped me understand later what was going on.

I believe the reason all the great music came out of Britain in the 1960s was because of our childhood during WWII and the school system there. I was just another child of that era whose creativity went in a different direction. But for the fact my anger was directed towards myself I could have just as easily gone a different direction and become a violent criminal as many of my generation did. This forms the basis for my novel “Prodigal Child.” It is a work of fiction, a story of what my life might have been had it taken a different turn early on.

In the late 1980s my second marriage failed and I realized I needed to change. I was not always a pleasant person to be around; the sheet rock on the walls of my frame shop was full of the impressions of tools I had thrown across the room in a temper tantrums. The anger was always directed at myself never others, but others around me had to witness and listen to this.

I knew I had to change; for my own sake as well as others around me. I started to look deep within myself to see why I was the way I was. I was never given credit for doing well as a child; only punished for doing wrong. As an adult I continued with the self punishment if I screwed up and I would not tolerate anything but perfection from myself. This led to success as an artist, but failure in every other aspect of my life.

I also discovered that all creativity comes from the same source. It is not a right brain, left brain thing; it comes from deep within the artist, his soul or very being. The artist is simply a vehicle through which art appears. So why should there not be something transferred to the artist’s creation. A piece of music or a painting can have a life of its own, or a vibrancy; so why not a bicycle frame or guitar. Because all art comes from the same source; all art is the same and if someone has excelled in one art form, they can do so in another.

This is why I was able to leave the bike business and take up writing and songwriting. If I screw up in writing unlike frame building it’s easily fixed in a rewrite. Also writing has been great therapy for me; better to get all this sh*t out than to hold it inside. Which is exactly what I am doing now so thank you for allowing me to indulge myself?

Maj.Taylor

First, WOW! Cool pic of grandpa! One of cycling's original "hard men." (You were hard simply for being a serious cyclist back then, it appears.) And to think, he was around during the real Major Taylor's day. He may even have seen him race. Gives me goosebumps. Do you mind if I steal a copy of it?

You're spot on about form. I can individually identify almost all of my riding partners from half-a-mile or more away. And almost invariably, I can identify a "serious" cyclist who has put effort into getting it right from even farther away than that. I remember having my ego very inflated once when at a world championships a couple of people asked if I would be riding the road race. (Yea, right.) After all they said, I looked like one of the pro riders. It then felt good to know all the effort I'd put into proper form was paying off.

I first judge many cyclists by two very visible things--their bike and their form. Ugly bike, watch out. S/he really does ride it. They clearly care more about their conditioning than their bike's good looks. Superb form, keep an eye on them in the pack. They're either a natural or have put some time into getting things properly sorted out. Put the two together and you're usually looking at a very good Cat. 3, a Cat. 2, or an even better rider. (But all that said, I have seen some excellent pros with just god-awful form. Was it Etxebarria who looked as if he was a cripple on a bike during a couple of Tours?)

Dave Moulton

Threadless steering columns definitely a boon to manufacturers; you can pre-make forks or buy them out and just cut them to length later. The only drawback I see is once you’ve cut your steering column to length you’re screwed. You have to buy a new stem, or fork to raise your handlebars.

khuon

Actually, sometimes you have to end up buying a whole new frame to get a taller headtube since even with a longer steerer, you might exceed the spacer stack height limit. Of course, I'm not sure the average quill stem had any greater an adjustable range but I'd have to guess it was over an inch and a half. It's been a while so someone refresh my memory.

55/Rad

Thank you Dave. This post, in it's entirety, answers the questions I had about you as a person and how your life in and out of cycling came to be. OCD focus/perfectionism and how this type of personality is wired is a topic of which I am intimately familar - particulary the part about finding harmony and balance. I found that, in order to affect change, it takes years of experience, a solid understanding of thyself and a equally focused effort/desire to incorporate new and foreign concepts. And more. Knowing this about you inspires me to read your book. Thank you for the insight.

55/Rad

Maj.Taylor

This is becoming the coolest of all threads here at BikeForums. Thank you for starting it, Dave.

(BikeForums itself isn't so bad either. Thanks for creating a great space, Joe. I guess I should round up that $25 and send it your way.)

55/Rad

I'm partial to the "what should I buy?" threads - they are always informative and enlightening.

I need to upgrade my membership as well.

55/Rad

Dave Moulton

I hope you do check out the book and I would like to point out that you can read the first four chapters of the book on my website (Link below.) Usually if you read four chapters of a book you have a pretty good idea whether you are going to like it or not and I figured it would be nice if people had the chance to do that before they plonked down their hard earned money.



I started but it is the rest of you who posted interesting responses that gave me food for thought to say more stuff. The reason it has been good is because people have been civil for the most part. I think what kills a thread is when people get hostile and start talking trash; it’s great when that doesn’t happen and it spawns an intelligent discussion. I hope it continues at least a little longer.