Brian Ratliff

For commuting, downtube is arguably better since a flick of the wrist takes your chain across the cassette when forced to stop for a light. My experience at least. For base miles, shifters really don't matter much at all.

mazdaspeed

If you have a set of good indexed DT shifters you're good to go. It really takes very little effort to just reach down and click them up or down however many gears.

I use this bike on group rides:



But really, you could have a good looking 20-22lb steel bike with high end, durable components and nice wheels for less than an entry level new road bike that weighs more and has mediocre sora parts or something. You just have to be willing to live with DT shifters.

Minion1

I don't wanna say it because I'm sure you've heard it before, but have you considered a setback seatpost?

tagaproject6

That is a sweet looking Bianchi! Which Cinelli seatpost is that?

mazdaspeed

It is a setback seatpost. I have long legs so I need the saddle to be fairly far back.

It's a cinelli vai. Eventually I want to get a polished aluminum one, if I can find a vintage post that's tall enough.

soulbike

I think some are beginning to see the relevance of this post. To rephrase the question, in our current situation where we are spoilt for choice, and have tried and seen almost everything that can be done to a bicycle, what would be the most 'elegant' solution for a bicycle that will not be raced.

The reason I came up with the original list was:

1) DT shifters as pointed out requires not much maintenance. Also, as one poster already pointed you, there is a certain beauty to a metal part that is well casted/ forged, finished and polished. Also the simplicity of the action involved etc....
2) Titanium frame as it would be the most trouble free frame material available at the moment.
3) Steel forks mostly just for looks really, but also same as for point 1 where the elegance of the finished product certainly outweights that of modern carbon forks.

Of course, certain elements of modern componentry I feel have been a step forward namely dual caliper brakes. modern stems (sorry quill stem advocates), alloy bars and posts, although a well casted and finished steel post does look amazing...

I think the sport of cycling (a discussion for another post) has moved so much into the whole lets ride because we have dreams of being a pro to just lets enjoy cycling that alot of people (myself included) have lost sight of the real joy of just cycling a bicycle. And I gotta say, moving back to my DT shifter steel bike gives me that feeling. But no, lets not turn this thread into a lets all be retro grouches or fixie hipster thread!

So, again, if we were going to build a BICYCLE from ground up, ignoring ALL the industry driven marketing and what pros ride and race, what would be the most elegant (taking into consideration form and function) parts for this purpose.

ADSR

I'd be into something with a TIG-welded steel frame with a tall-ish head tube, downtube shifters, fender mounts/clearance, and a wide-rimmed wheel. Maybe even disc tabs? I'm envisioning something that can be ridden 365 days a year but also set up for sport riding.

Honestly I like what you're talking about, but aside from the titanium frame it sounds like a randonee bike.

Drew Eckhardt 

Cyclists did fine with down-tube shifters, five cogs in back, and even cogs on both sides of a flip-flop hub so obviously you don't need integrated brake/shift levers or even derailleurs.

Being able to shift without removing your rear wheel is nice, one tooth jumps up to your 19 cog are nice, and shifting from the brake hoods are all nice.

Where you draw the line is personal and arbitrary.

Titanium is great since damage shows up in the form of polished spots instead of paint chips. It's not too visible and can be made more hidden with brushed finishes using a scotch-brite pad.

Stainless can't rust or flake.

Campagnolo ergo levers.

Yes. I finally cracked mine after 15 years and got a brand new one.

No. For all practical purposes the rims don't provide any compliance. You get that from wider tires at lower pressures. Low profile box rims are also easier to bend than deeper rims.

32 spokes let you loose tension on one due to a slight bend or breakage (should never happen on a wheel you build) and keep riding, perhaps opening your brake release.

Cost savings won't be interesting.

Integrated brake/shift levers are a commodity used on the vast majority of new first-world road bikes. Down-tube shifters and are a boutique item for retro builds. Road brake levers are boutique items for touring/fixed gear/retro builds.

Looking at UK prices

Campagnolo 10 speed integrated brake/shift levers start at $89 (including cables, although I sprung for a $190 pair of NOS 2010 Centaur Ultrashift levers (same as Record without the 11 speed index cam, two cut-outs in the brake blade, and "Record" printed on front) to preserve the classic 5 cogs smaller, three cogs bigger behavior and left lever trim functionality). Campagnolo brake levers run $148 (but they do say "Record") and bar-end shifters you can convert with scavenged parts $140. That makes integrated levers $98 - $199 less expensive.

Shimano has Dura Ace down-tube shifters for $67 and Tiagra brake leves for $25
although I'd take Campagnolo Escape levers for less money.

Macster

Doh!

mazdaspeed

Honestly, you could go through all that trouble and have a very nice bike, but I feel like it would have a confused identity. There are lots of nice, collectible (as in, they retain value) vintage bikes out there that will give you all the riding purity you want. There is nothing wrong with steel frames if you take care of them. It's easy to treat them with frame saver to prevent rust, I don't understand the hangup on a Ti frame when most good steel frames will (damage aside) last a lifetime.

Homebrew01

That's what I like about Campy ergo, multiple shifts at once, although the lower model 2011 have been neutered with "powershift".

I'll take the convenience of integrated shifters any time over down tubes, despite the minute risk of damage. I raced many years with downtubes and don't miss them.

LesterOfPuppets

I definitely liked the cog span of a single shift on my olde 8-speed Mirage over Shimano units of the era but it still wasn't the entire cogset. Actually all I ask is to be able to go from 52x11 or 52x12 to 52x24 on my 11-28 cassette. Very nice when you're lucky enough to hit a red light every mile or so.

Drew Eckhardt 

First and second generation Campagnolo ergo levers (still available brand new at the Record and Chorus level in 10 speed form) are pretty much their down-tube mechanism with two G-springs instead of 3, the index cam on the moving part instead of the fixed part, and some very simple levers that only engage the moving part when pressure is applied.

I'm leaning towards a XACD (by way of Habenero, $1300 with custom geometry and US prep & warranty service) or NTP titanium frame with couplers and Reynolds 953 stainless fork (https://road.cc/content/image/18270-r...53-fork-blades Shiny. Pretty. Want.), chain stays long enough to provide heel clearance for panniers, and long reach brakes or cantilevers with a fork crown cable stop because although I'm still happy with 25mm tires fenders would be nice in the rainy season and I can see getting even grumpier as I age (my current titanium frame has 15 years on the clock and would be fine indefinitely if my tastes didn't evolve).

Pretty much what I got when I bought my first "road" bike in the 1980s just modernized, travel-friendly, and nicer. Like a German sports sedan or BMW motorcycle - although very pleasant to go fast on I'll still be happy in bad weather and have enough luggage capacity to commute to work or head down the coast for a weekend.

Probably keep my Selle Italia Turbomatic. I loved my Turbomatic 2 and my new one feels good but I haven't ridden it for more than an hour at a time to pass judgement. They soak up vibration nice.

2010 Centaur Ultrashift carbon levers retaining the classic five cogs smaller, three bigger behavior and brake releases on the hoods (early 2009 had a vague feel, 2011 have neutered mechanisms), 50-39-28 (the Stronglight Fission with last season's silver rings looks nice although I already have 170mm K-Force Light cranks in my parts bin) x 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26 (loose nickel-chrome plated cogs (I never needed anything more than 50x13 living in the Colorado Rockies or lower than 34x23/30x21 although a bit more for middle aged spread and touring would be nice and I love one tooth jumps up to the 19 for flat rides). Classic. Long lasting. Inexpensive.) gears. 2004-2006 Record Titanium triple front derailleur (the coated aluminum fork looks good), perhaps my matching rear with carbon fiber outer knuckle and cage (modern yet timeless) or I'm tempted to customize it with an earlier silver inner cage plate and kuckle arm (black anodizing doesn't look good as you add mileage and scratches). 2000 Chorus Titanium seat post which is modern and has less blue in the shaft than an alloy post.

Silver Velocity Fusion or Deep-V rims laced cross-3 to silver 2000-2006 Record hubs with silver DT Aerolite spokes (Shimano freehubs are available if that's your thing). Box section rims aren't that durable and I'm not happy with how tight Continental tires are on the Kinlin XR-300s I tried (although they do fine cosmetically with the shiny silver finish). Getting a slight bend and continuing to ride with an open quick release is nice so I'll keep the spoke count. Record hubs are still cup-and-cone and come with grease ports so you only have to take them apart half as often.

I love my Cinelli 66 deep drop bar which puts the tops a little high for eating and drinking, hoods in a normal location, and has a nice low position in the drops but haven't figured out what to do now that shift/brake levers are designed to mount higher on the bars.

Tubus Airy titanium rack, Gilles Berthoud carbon fiber fenders (It doesn't rain heavily here). Simple. Elegant. Modern.

25mm Continental Gatorskins. They feel nice enough on the road, don't puncture often, and get great life.

TMonk

I have a steel dt shifter bike (7-speed shimano 600 index) that I use for nearly all of my solo riding/training, and even some group rides too.
I even used it in a crit earlier this season when I was getting a SRAM shifter warrantied on my race bike.

Here it is:


It's looking alot cleaner these days with a new shiny nitto quill stem and some silver Fizik tape.
I enjoy riding this bike so much that I plan on converting it to 10 speed shimano this fall - but retaining index downtube shifting via Shimano 7900 downtube shifters.

The downtube shifters are more reliable and classic looking, plus I get tons of comments every time I take it out on a fast group ride or even a race, which I make a point of doing atleast once a season.

For the record, here is my race bike:



This thing is now featuring a stem that is 10mm longer (at 110)

I love this bike as well, but for different reasons. I win races or place well by sprinting, and this bike does that perfectly- it's a rocket and I can't detect any flex whatsoever when my 150lb body squeezes out all it has. In addition, it turns and handles faster than any bike i've ever owned, which includes CAAD frames, a carbon look etc... It's a perfect race machine. I could use a headtube that is 0.5cm taller and a toptube that is 1cm shorter, but i will eventually have to go custom alu to accomodate my body.

------------------

While I love the Soul and it is a perfect race steed for me, my stable will never be complete with a trusty steel or Ti downtube shifer bike. The simple reliability, clean looks, classic vibe and visceral feel of a tough dt shifter bike make them a must-have for me.

If you can't afford to build up a fancy one, there is always one to be had on CL in the 200-300 dollar range.

SSRI

i've got OP's bike


ti frame with chrome fork dt shift

Bob Dopolina 

I started racing on 6spd DT shifters. There is an art to shifting and racing with DT shifters that is all but lost on riders now.

It might actually be fun to do a few rides with DT shifters but certainly not as a race bike or at least for any race with climbing.

thump55

Yup. The climbing out of the saddle part is a huge drawback with DT shifters.

I spend more time standing while climbing than others I ride with, and I shift alot as the grade varies to keep my cadence in the zone I want. When I got rid of DT shifters it was a happy day. The clouds parted, sun shone through, and angels played trumpets to signal a new era had dawned....and I'll never go back. ever.

motobecane69

my thoughts
1. Why are stem shifters so frowned upon but downtube shifters okay? seems to me if you are racing and riding in the drops reaching up for the stem would be a pain in the ass and downtubes make sense. But if your just a casual rider, why not have the shifter on the stem where if you do hit a bump or need to get your hand back on the bar quickly you can.

2. They are still relevant for anyone who wants to build a nice bike with an otherwise modern drive train but save themselves $3-600 on shifters. When i think of the type of riding that I do, there is no real reason why I need STI shifters.

3. the only high end bike I had ever ridden prior to getting the cycling bug last year was a mtb so I had no experience with using STI until last year. When the last image of a road bike you have is a downtube bike or a stem shifted bike, STI is just so cool and you feel like you gotta have it.

4. While I see a viable niche for downtube shifters the weight argument isn't that strong of an argument because people are forgetting that if you have downtube shifters you still need to put brake levers on your bars. Granted, the 2 combined will still weigh less but the weight savings aren't as great as some are making them out to be.

pallen

That's going to 100% be your own opinion. Some would say fixed gear, single speed with no shifters at all.

himespau 

and I'm going to go back to my suggestion of a kelly take-off. the simplicity of a downtube shifter, but right at your fingertips when on the hoods (and also reachable from the tops or drops).

mrvile

As intrigued as I am about those Kelly doodads... they are absolutely hideous, and I have to draw the line somewhere. I'll stick to my bar-end shifters for now.

spock

But it's so nice when you don't have shifters staring at you at all times. Most of the time people tend to be using something just because it's there and sometimes more than necessary if it's sooo accessible. With DT's, people tend to shift when most appropriate according to the need. It's just so funny to me when I hear a group of roadies reacting to to green light from red... It's like a whole bunch of people playing ping pong.

himespau 

True, they're not the prettiest and I probably don't need them as I don't shift very often, but I have a bad back and I don't think my core is good enough for me to reach the downtube regularly. Plus, I'm friction shifting at the moment and having the levers nearby is good for making the little adjustments that come with being new to friction. But yeah, they are ugly.

Reynolds 

I like DT shifters because of their simplicity, crispness and ability to shift different cassettes in friction mode, as said before.

Tundra_Man 

Obviously I can't speak for everyone else, but having recently converted my Panasonic to bar-end shifting, I know what I personally didn't like about stem shifters:

First, the location of the stem shifters, being closer to my torso made me have to sit more upright when shifting in order to get sufficient leverage to move the levers. It wasn't ergonomically in a good spot for me. Shifting just always felt awkward.

Second, when standing to climb I would frequently bump the levers with my knee and accidentally shift to a higher gear which would be exactly the opposite of what I wanted to do. Arguably this could be evidence of poor climbing form on my part, but nevertheless relocating the shifters solved this issue for me.

Third, and this is admittedly a very minor issue, I purchased a small stem bag to hold my phone while I'm riding. It worked great on all my other bikes, but I couldn't strap it to this bike as it would interfere with the shifting.

I was considering converting to downtube shifting, which would have solved the above issues for me. I came across a forum member selling a pair of vintage bar-end shifters, and decided instead to try the bar-end route. As it turned out, this was the best upgrade (so far) I've done to this bike. I love where the shifters are now located. Obviously not as convenient as brifters, but pretty close. When I shift, my hand is pretty much still on the handlebars.

If I were to buy a brand new bike I would most likely go the brifter route. In my case of updating an older bike, I wouldn't hesitate to move away from stem shifting.