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Do wheels make THAT much of a difference?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Do wheels make THAT much of a difference?

Old 09-18-11, 12:36 PM
  #51  
jischr
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Since the OP didn't quantify the word 'that', then I'll say yes they make that much difference. I noticed a difference when I went from 32h rims on Shimano 105 hubs to Mavic Krysium Elite wheels. Easier to accelerate, easier up hills, easier to keep moving; but bloody noisy. Which may be why I'm faster on the Mavics, I have to keep pedaling so the rear wheel stays quiet. Lubing the paws is a great help for about 150 miles, then is back to the klack.
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Old 09-18-11, 02:05 PM
  #52  
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Wheels can make quite a difference to the way a bike feels, but when actually measured against the clock it is only a small amount. So basically they give you a slight edge in a race situation, but don't expect to be keeping up with guys who would normally drop you just because you put good wheels on.
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Old 09-18-11, 02:07 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Triode View Post
Umm, not really.

With no specifics, have no idea WTF you mean.

ETA to be clear - have no idea if you are pro, con or a troll
pro what? con what?

eventually I hope you either give up or figure out what I am getting at.

no wait, I'll make it obvious. the whole thread is chock full of opinion and conjecture being passed off as "fact" by people who have no business saying a damn thing about it. Self-appointed experts. I find it pointless to even be specific about it when that one picture just makes a perfect fit for the thread so far.

Here is some data in case you really are interested in how much of a difference a wheel makes (with no silly guesstimates as to what MPH you will go, or what the difference in cost is, or whether it matters for professional cyclists versus amateurs, or any other nonsense).

https://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

Want to know what difference those watts will make in speed? try this:

https://bikecalculator.com/veloUS.html

I have a lot of wheels. Some of them are aero. Some are not. I have raced a lot (close to 200 races now). I have a very aero setup for time trials. I know how much I gain from a ten-watt savings.

That does not make me an expert and unlike many in the 41 I know when to STFU and let the data speak. Don't listen to me. Follow the data.

Oh, and by the way, it's a funny picture just in case you hadn't figured that part out.
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Old 09-18-11, 06:55 PM
  #54  
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I've got wheels from 24mm to 80mm and weights all over the place. The answer is yes, they do make a difference. Everything makes a difference and those differences are additive. What some people may realize is that at some point you're happy with what you got for equipment and your fitness. Then you wander and see what can be tweaked. It's those tweaks, that may seem small to others, that can make a measurable difference. Maybe that difference is small but it's a difference. A little here and a little there and suddenly your TT time is down a minute or you use 30 watts less in a crit. Performance, technique, equipment and fitness are what we can affect so why not check it out? Big things are the sum of the little things. GL
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Old 09-18-11, 07:14 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
Sure, but so what? Unless you get paid to ride, most improvements (even significant ones) are unimportant.

If it helps you enjoy your sport, there's nothing wrong spending your money where your time and priorities are. Besides, many guys with the gear have been riding a long time and are doing well to hang onto what fitness they have.
Wow, well said.
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Old 09-18-11, 07:26 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
pro what? con what?

eventually I hope you either give up or figure out what I am getting at.

no wait, I'll make it obvious. the whole thread is chock full of opinion and conjecture being passed off as "fact" by people who have no business saying a damn thing about it. Self-appointed experts. I find it pointless to even be specific about it when that one picture just makes a perfect fit for the thread so far.

Here is some data in case you really are interested in how much of a difference a wheel makes (with no silly guesstimates as to what MPH you will go, or what the difference in cost is, or whether it matters for professional cyclists versus amateurs, or any other nonsense).

https://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

Want to know what difference those watts will make in speed? try this:

https://bikecalculator.com/veloUS.html

I have a lot of wheels. Some of them are aero. Some are not. I have raced a lot (close to 200 races now). I have a very aero setup for time trials. I know how much I gain from a ten-watt savings.

That does not make me an expert and unlike many in the 41 I know when to STFU and let the data speak. Don't listen to me. Follow the data.

Oh, and by the way, it's a funny picture just in case you hadn't figured that part out.
I guess we all missed the part where the OP asked for "experts" only to respond. You do realize that this is nothing more than a silly social forum geared to bikers don't you??
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Old 09-18-11, 07:27 PM
  #57  
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If your existing wheels are not true they could make a bigger difference.
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Old 09-18-11, 07:41 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by capt211 View Post
I have felt like I just need to work on my legs... not sink more money into my bike.
I think you answered your own question with this statement...Even if aftermarket wheels made climbs easier it would work your legs less and take more money. I upgraded my stock wheels with Ksyrium SL's for about 900 bucks and I swear it seems like they are heavier and slower than the wheels I began with. At least they do "look" cool :-/
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Old 09-18-11, 09:32 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by vuduchyld5 View Post
I think you answered your own question with this statement...Even if aftermarket wheels made climbs easier it would work your legs less and take more money. I upgraded my stock wheels with Ksyrium SL's for about 900 bucks and I swear it seems like they are heavier and slower than the wheels I began with. At least they do "look" cool :-/
They are about the least aero wheels around, so they may well be "slower" than your previous wheels.
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Old 09-18-11, 09:45 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by SoruAdami View Post
I totally concur. I went through a similar upgrade recently - got a new bike with Ksyrium Equipe wheelsets, which I think are about 300-400g lighter than my previous set. Even though the new bike itself is at least 3 lbs lighter than the old one overall, I think I made up for that difference by loading it up with 2 huge bottles during a C+ ride I went on last weekend. With that I was still able to maintain 23mph on flats solo (about 3-4mph better than what I could do on the old bike). The acceleration of the new bike is incredible. I would also give credit to the nice frame and Ultegra components, but I think the biggest contribution came from the lighter wheels.

If you think about it, I'm now rotating 400 g less mass on that 311mm radius at >250 RPM in order to travel at 20mph (someone check the math)

All this being said, I believe this must be close to the sweet spot for me. Any more money I spend on wheels will probably have marginal returns for my needs (I'm not a racer - if you are one that's a different story).

Needless to say all the other comments (including yours) about improving improving your legs are very true. However given the same legs (say already improved as much as humanly possible) the quest for the right equipment that will improve your efficiency is a very valid one. The only counter argument could be that having really light wheels might spoil you and demotivate from more stringent training.
I am sorry, but no modern wheel is going to give you 3-4 mph advantage over another, unless there was something mechanically wrong with your old wheels. In fact, the difference between a good aero rim and a box section rim is about 1/4 mph at speeds that most of us would ride at. For what it is worth, I have several wheel sets of various weight and depth (Easton Circuit, Campy Zonda, Ambrosio Nemesis / Dura Ace hubs, and Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL), they are all maintained well and I don't really notice any difference in speed between them.

Plus you shouldn't be riding with the C+ folks if you are maintaining 23mph solo

Last edited by fa63; 09-18-11 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 09-18-11, 11:01 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
They are about the least aero wheels around, so they may well be "slower" than your previous wheels.
So true- Yeah, and by heavier I meant sluggish..not actual wheel weight. I read before hand they were great for climbs and durability...I don't see a drastic difference in the climbing performance either and I guess only time will tell how durable they are. Not to mention they are loud as hell...
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Old 09-18-11, 11:20 PM
  #62  
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I don't have any wheels anywhere close to $2000, so I can't comment on them, but I can talk about what I have. I say Yes, they do make a difference. Examples: I weigh about 225. I have a very neutral handling old Italian racing bike (Bottecchia). For urban rides around St. Louis I ride wider rimed wheels with 700x28 tires. Bombproof wheels and stable, solid handling. For rural rides I put on narrower rimed wheels with 700x23 tires. I guess the bike's maybe a little faster, but the handling/performance is much sportier. I.e., not much difference in speed, but much difference in handling. I also have some noticably lighter, higher performance wheel sets I use on other bikes. Those wheels are definitely both faster and better handling, but not as sturdy for rough roads.
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Old 09-18-11, 11:53 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by capt211 View Post
I got a bike about two seasons ago off of C/L and have ridden it quite a bit since. It's a carbon frame with Ultegra components. I have a hilly 'training loop' that's roughly 27 miles, on very rough city streets, that I do 2 or 3 times a week. I've never done an official bicycle race but I competed in two sprint tri's this year and plan to do quite a few more next year.
I have Shimano wheels on it now. I looked for a name on them (like Ultegra or something) but there isn't anything other than a Shimano decal, so I'm guess they're pretty low end. If they are low end, they are good wheels. They spin for days and have kept true over 2 years on very rough roads.. and I weigh 205lbs.
Every time I go on the group rides I see guys with the 'areo' wheels, Zipp 404's and the such. I wonder to myself, would I really notice a difference. Do $2k wheels make it THAT much easier to climb? Are they THAT much more aerodynamic? Would I increase much average speed THAT much? (which is low 18mph)
I have felt like I just need to work on my legs... not sink more money into my bike. I'm just wondering, do wheels make THAT much of a difference?
I have a pair of light-weight carbon tubular wheels that I use on the weekend group rides. these wheels come in at 1150 grams...with tires, skewers and cogs; just under 2000 grams...yes a little heavier than your wheelset alone. these wheels are accelerate like you would not believe and on the hills, you can use a smaller cog to go faster. I "train" with a heavier bike with heavier wheels during the week and jump on carbon on the weekends, it feels like I have a motor! that said, the distance for a sprint tri is pretty short...but still 20k is 20k. I did an Olympic distance tri and guys with full tt setups with 60 mm wheels were flying by me on the flats (I didn't have the carbon tubies).
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Old 09-19-11, 02:11 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
I guess we all missed the part where the OP asked for "experts" only to respond. You do realize that this is nothing more than a silly social forum geared to bikers don't you??
Exactly.
I'm no expert but I also have a "very aero" setup as Grumpy Mctrumpy likes to call it and I do race in time trails, be it non professional ones.
As I stated above ... for races ... where seconds count ... everything including the wheels is going to make a difference.
For casual people though ... it would be strange to pay a thousand dollars to be a few seconds faster per kilometer, wouldn't you agree Grumpy?
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Old 09-19-11, 02:42 AM
  #65  
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Umm, not to threadjack, but do they make intentionally heavy rims FOR training? wouldnt mind riding literally bulletproof rims for 1k mi, then switch back to my normal s500's (r500's? idk, idc) and feel the difference. i think itll be like going from my current rims to zipps, which i wont get until im well out of college also for a prescription for unlimited doses of HTFU. maybe i should put my clipless pedals on my varsity and call it good
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Old 09-19-11, 08:21 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by fa63 View Post
I am sorry, but no modern wheel is going to give you 3-4 mph advantage over another, unless there was something mechanically wrong with your old wheels. In fact, the difference between a good aero rim and a box section rim is about 1/4 mph at speeds that most of us would ride at. For what it is worth, I have several wheel sets of various weight and depth (Easton Circuit, Campy Zonda, Ambrosio Nemesis / Dura Ace hubs, and Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL), they are all maintained well and I don't really notice any difference in speed between them.

Plus you shouldn't be riding with the C+ folks if you are maintaining 23mph solo
Well, you may be right... Please notice I wasn't making a strong statement, but just recounting my upgrade experience with all numeric data involved.

Other possible explanations for the difference: 1) Placebo effects may be involved as others mentioned (but as I ride the bike more I keep getting the same results, placebo effect's gotta wear out at some point, no?), 2) other components of the bike may be contributing much more to my performance than I'm giving them credit for (but the their most notable difference is weight as I mentioned), 3) the new bike's better fit might be another contributor


I should clarify: when I said "... I maintain 23mph... " I meant for about a mile or so on an absolutely flat course, no headwinds. Then I need to go back to 20 for a while.

C+ = longer than 100 miles. Who are the C+ folks you're referring to?

EDIT: Scratch that question. Thanks to the mighty internet I now know what a C+ pace is. Sorry for the confusing use of terminology.

Last edited by SoruAdami; 09-19-11 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 09-19-11, 08:34 PM
  #67  
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i don't race anymore. but i could afford them and i wanted them and so i got some 50mm carbon clinchers and they were nice to look at and fun to have for summer good weather riding. i wasn't under any illusion that they were much or any faster than conventional wheels, but for sure they were a treat. carbon bike and wheels are in the basement being overhauled now and back to some trusty aluminum till the snow flies.
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Old 09-19-11, 08:34 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
Unless you get paid to ride, most improvements (even significant ones) are unimportant..
No one paid me to go to Nats the last two years.

I have 4 medals.

I guess would disagree.
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Old 09-19-11, 08:39 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
I guess we all missed the part where the OP asked for "experts" only to respond. You do realize that this is nothing more than a silly social forum geared to bikers don't you??
On rare instances people come to these forums to gain knowledge. In which case it's good to differentiate opinion (especially ones founded in nothing more than thin air) from fact.
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Old 09-19-11, 08:55 PM
  #70  
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I get a laugh out of racer versus non-racer and the benefits of wheels, frames, aero bars, etc. It's a question of performance improvements. That can mean a crit, a tt, a club ride, or just beating your own time.

Why does everyone keep asking if you are a racer?

I raced bikes, did tri's, was very competitive running (usually finished in the top and made the newspaper results). But I also didn't like being beat in club rides or just sprints with friends. If I had an advantage like wheels, great.

So when someone wants performance, why do people here keep asking if you race?
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Old 09-19-11, 11:10 PM
  #71  
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i like StanSteven's point.
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Old 09-20-11, 01:16 AM
  #72  
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I like StanSeven's point too ... because it gives me an excuse to drop more money on bike components.
But although it is indeed fun to have great stuff ... fact remains that wheels make only a very small difference.
If people want to pay a lot of money for that small a difference ... sure why not ... but it's always good to know what kind of performance difference to expect and be able to make an informed purchase.
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Old 09-20-11, 01:41 AM
  #73  
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I could buy a lot of Chinese EPO for $2000...
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Old 09-20-11, 06:51 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Old Whitebelly View Post
I could buy a lot of Chinese EPO for $2000...
and you'd still be on slow wheels
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Old 09-20-11, 11:35 AM
  #75  
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