SRAM Red 2013 Evolution
 

Check this out. The design aspect of Red....from the designers perspective.
Scroll down for their venture into hydraulic brakes....too cool

http://bicycledesign.net/

Too highly stylized for my taste.

Its style that graps our attention and creates purpose...................I think.

That's an awful lot of time and effort just to fall two years farther behind the market. These "refinements" should have been in the original product four years ago. If there's not a surprising new product coming from SRAM in 2013 (besides "Red"), it's not going to be good for the company. (I'm no SRAM hater. My primary road bike carries a SRAM Red/Force drivetrain. It wasn't cutting edge when I bought it and the company keeps falling farther behind every year. Hydraulic brakes? Cool. Old tech MTB stuff. C'mon, folks!)

Cool, I'll take a closer look at it later. I do have to say that the front derailleur is quite revolutionary and I think well worth any sort of wait. What do you mean behind? By not doing electronic? Plenty of cyclists have no desire for electronic and most people who buy Campy and Shimano don't either. Electronic of course was revolutionary, but with only 4% of customers actually riding it makes it kind of a halo item. A super high end product just to say that they can do it and have it justify high costs.

Red is attainable my many and I bet you the percentage of people riding the new Red will be much higher than people riding electronic groups.

He means no electronic shifting and no 11-speed. The other two main stream companies are continuing to push the limits of performance, while SRAM is just working on fixing the things people have been complaining about for years. Their new cassette and FD are evidence of this. The ONLY impressive/progressive thing coming from SRAM right now is their new Red power meter crankset, and that's based only on the fact that it's lightweight.

The front derailleur isn't exactly revolutionary anymore . . . but it was, back in the 1920's, when it was a very popular way of shifting the chain. SRAM's "new" system is only new compared to those systems in that it provides indexing and shifting from the bars.

When you've got pro teams BUYING your competitor's groups rather than taking yours for free, something is wrong. That's especially true with the pro teams under serious financial strain. It's about shifting performance. And by the end of 2013, the lack of a reasonably-priced electronic group will be a killer. No credible company can afford to find itself in that situation. Electronic has been perfected and marketed by Shimano for over three years now. It is faster for the racers (especially sprinters and climbers) and it is lower-maintenance / better-performing for the enthusiast cyclist. The price has dropped until it can be had for less than some premium cable-actuated groupsets. So, yes, SRAM is behind and is falling farther behind the market. I ride SRAM. I'm pulling for them. But IT APPEARS that they've missed the breakaway. I hope not.

But . . . some people still buy friction shifters.

I feel that people are putting too much weight into the concept of going to an electronic system. First off SRAM has always been a fan of saying they have the lightest groupset. Sorry but due to battery and servo requirements current and quite possibly MANY future generations of the electronic groups will continue to be heavier then their cable actuated counterparts. What SRAM is doing is refining a technology to a further and further degree, electronic shifting is another technology all together.

Say what you want but the fact that it looks like they have just produced probably one of the best cable actuated systems WITH hydraulic brake possibilities (Lets not forget that Hydraulics can offer even MORE weight savings, eliminate cable stretch and are not affected by weather, a few of the advantages of electronic right there, and yes I know the drawbacks). Going to 11 speed seems to be getting redundant in the technology wars. I am sorry but at this point an extra gear is just not a true performance enhancement, there are ALOT of 10 speed components out there right now, 11 speed makes life harder for the average mechanic, they are staying with a market that has a good base, not trying to force a new product line entirely down people's throats. Want to run one of your older 10 speed cassettes, chains, use your old chain tool? Chain Whip? quick links? Wheels? Sure!

Sorry but I cannot seem to see a lack of an electronic groupset in the light of a clearly very refined mechanical groupset any sort of "missing the mark". If you think you can hit your market with a superior product then your competitors then go for it.

SRAM may turn out to be a Kodak if they don't embrace e' shift technology. I also am not a sram hater but lets get with the program.

There. You hit on the problem. SRAM has always been the crudest, least refined cable-actuated system. It still is. SRAM has never produced a refined product. SRAM means loud shifts from very firm lever pushes (in one direction). A lot of people like it that way. They dont like the snick-snick refined shifts that Shimano's cable-actuated shifters supply. Is it lighter? Yes. But if you're already at the UCI limit, lighter doesn't help.

With this groupset, SRAM is still targeting the best 2007 competition. Things have changed and left SRAM behind.

If bright shiny things attract you, you would...;)

LOL...what got SRAM in the road marketplace was Shimano's inability to get product to market. That, on top of the totally crapola Dura Ace 7900 was what got me to pick up the phone and call SRAM and get Red on my bike.

Trust me, I know more about this than you.

It's funny, I've had Red on my bikes since the second year it was out and never had an issue. Neither have the large number of people I know that ride the various SRAM road groupsets.

The Internet Expert has spoken! All discussion is closed.

Discussion is a word that requires at least two people who have an understanding of what they are talking about to have a dialogue. Once one of them figures out that the other is spouting off talking points that they've picked up off of various forums, that pretty much concludes the activites.

Sorry but saying that SRAM is the "crudest" system doesn't really hold water at all. What do you define as crude? As you point out yourself it is just a different feel to the system, one that I and many others actually like, I never liked the "snick-snick" feeling of Shimano when I used it, I hated the even quieter sound from my 9 speed Campy shifters, I personally like the hard fast and mechanical sound of the SRAM mechanism. Perhaps you want to talk about the shifting mechanism? I have torn apart and re-assembled all three types of brifters (Yes even STI ones). All of them operate on slightly different principles. Campy actually has one of the simplest, it is essentially a ratcheted friction shifter (And I mean both front and rear shifters), perhaps that is "un-refined".

In my opinion when it comes to refined I think that SRAM has the most refined rear derailleur out there. The knuckle system is extremely ingenious and carefully designed to keep a linear pull actuation where-as Campagnolo and Shimano need to use non-uniform pulls to move their RD, SRAM uses a uniform pull. Of course that is all semantics, I dont tout the EA monicker as being "special" or some type of magical technology that makes everything beautiful and perfect. Although I do have to say that simply the more cable you pull per shift the better off you are in the end since there can be a greater amount of friction before you actually have issues. But that is all technicalities that don't really mean anything.

As for Lightness not helping, I personally don't believe that. What lighter means is that you can spend your weight in other places, perhaps on the wheels, seat, handlebars, powermeter, frame (Those new Aero-tubes certainly weigh a bit more) or brakes (I think the move to that cam-actuated brake is stupid, if it can't dead-lock my wheels I aint riding it). On top of that you need to remember that target audience is not only the Pro and racing field at the end of the day. Some people like to proclaim they have an 11 pound bike. Doesn't mean much to the pro, means something to the guy who has $11,000 to burn.

On top of all this we are essentially discussing why electronic > mechanical or atleast I believe that is the way you see it. In the end it is about shift performance from what I can gather. This I will not argue about, sure electronic is wonderfully perfect, no variance by it's nature. The fact is though is that people have been racing mechanical systems for a good long while, people have been sprinting, climbing, and shifting under load with them for a good long while. Electronic may in the future move to the point where every pro has it, and it may move to a point where it even makes it's way out of the niche market, but it is certainly not this year, and I can say that mechanical will most likely never go away.

Simply put: Electronic refines certain aspects of mechanical shifting, but a refined mechanical shifting system is still just as competitive as an electronic one at this point.

roadwarrior- you are an internet d-bag. It's too bad you couldn't profit from being a forum troll. You wouldn't even have to try...then you could spare all your future cycling customers their time and money. I'd never come into your shop if I knew where it was because you work there.

But I don't care what you think. I just find you ramblings amusing.

You might try to stick to topics about which you know something.

BTW...name calling is a violation of the terms of agreement. You might try to keep yourself under control.

Well said.

Who can argue with this?

Who can argue with this?

On the other hand Di2 and Ultegra 6700 remain the shiznit. And 7900 is actually pretty good stuff. But this new Sram Red stuff looks very good indeed. More pressure on the idiots @ Shimano to get their shirt together. Of course if the Japanese nuclear power industry is any guide, that may be wishful thinking.

And next from Shimano: Nuclear powered electronic shifting, never worry about battery power again! just don't get caught in a flood......or else.

Really? Did you read my post? I was talking about the completely redesigned Red front derailleur, not the derailleur on your grandma's bike. I actually think it's better than electronic methods. Think about it, they have redesigned this part from the ground up to shift in a way that no mechanical front derailleur has been able to accomplish. You still have to trim Shimano and Campy mechanical systems.

The autotrim thing on electronic systems has been rendered obsolete by this mechanical advancement. Honestly the f-derailleur autotrim was the only reason why I'd consider electronic shifting. Now there's absolutely no point in it for me.

If Japan's nuclear plants were half as impervious to water/moisture as Di2 appears to be (I've literally submarined my Di2 and it never missed a shift), there would have been no problem after Japan's tsunami last year.

With this kind of half-arsed, low-budget analysis, I suggest that you guys keep your day jobs.

It is of course true at this point that SRAM has no electronic shifting system. The significance of this fact for SRAM's short-term competitiveness is probably limited. Shimano's bread and butter is still in cable-activated systems. SRAM definitely needs to have an electronic system in development, but the fact that it's not out yet doesn't mean anything at the moment. As for Campagnolo, they simply aren't a major competitor for either SRAM or Shimano, and if you don't understand this you can't hope to make a realistic analysis of the component industry. If you're worried about one of these three companies failing at some point in the not-too-distant future, you should worry about Campy. SRAM and Shimano compete somewhat superficially on technology, and compete extremely fiercely on OEM specification and supply. SRAM was extremely good at this BEFORE they entered the road component market. It isn't that surprising that their expertise in the OEM market has translated to enormous success in the road components market. The key here is not just cool new technology: it is cool new technology that they can bring to market in large volumes at a price that makes manufacturers want to use SRAM parts to spec their bikes. This is why Campy isn't even running.

Incidentally, for all the hand-waving about pro teams buying competing groups rather than using sponsor SRAM groups, it is Shimano and SRAM that dominate the peloton. Campagnolo is used by, what, three Pro Teams at this point? It is true that SRAM has some specific weaknesses, but they are doing a lot better than Campy (see above, re: Campy Is Not A Major Competitor In This Market).

As for comparing SRAM to the other two in pure technical terms, even in the absence of an electronic system, they are looking pretty good. For one, they are willing to experiment with interesting new ideas, which is what propelled Shimano to dominance in the '80s. For another, they are in pole position on hydraulic disc brakes for road bikes, which, for all you deride them as "old tech" is a big deal. And from a technological perspective, they are better poised to move in this new direction with both mechanical groups and a hypothetical future electronic group set (and, as evidence that this is a significant shift in technology, Shimano has a road disc system in the works as well). I could be wrong, but I believe the SRAM is the only manufacturer whose mechanical shifting mechanism will allow the use of a hydraulic master cylinder in a mechanical lever. I'm pretty sure that Shimano won't be able to squeeze hydraulics into a mechanical lever, meaning an electronic-only system, which will limit the short-term adoption of their system. Which obviously puts SRAM in an advantageous position, notwithstanding that they are going to be first to market with a hydraulic road disc anyway.

So I think SRAM is doing just fine, thank you very much. They've got good tech, extremely good operations, and a design team that is willing to try thinking different from the competition. I wouldn't worry too much about them being left behind.