Apocryphal, albeit based on an actual quote about rain and grapes.

Thank you he who takes everything 100% literally. I think Mars Bars are evil too, those little gooey bars of evil.

I gave up alcohol for Lent. A week left.

Things I noticed since giving it up: Acid reflux greatly reduced. The first week I often didn't feel well, and thought a drink would help. After that, the cravings (and the not feeling well) went away. Mild withdrawal perhaps? Prior to that I was a daily, but moderate (usually 1 or 2 per day) drinker.

When Easter comes, I will resume drinking, but cut back from where I was prior to quitting.

The one you happened to cherry pick shows 2 years added life for moderate drinking, up to 4 drinks per day. I'll sign up for that program.

I'm not arguing that it's a good idea to drink heavily. I am arguing there are positive ways to use alcohol, and thus alcohol per se is not evil. Simply because there are also harmful inappropriate uses does not make the substance evil.


Yes. Three of the studies in post 60 clearly show that the net positive health effect of moderate consumption more than trumps the public health negatives of abuse.

Alcohol prevents more deaths than its abuse causes in the United Kingdom, according to research from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.28
•Scientists at the University of London concluded that light and moderate drinking saves more lives in England and Wales than are lost through the abuse of alcohol. If everyone abstained from alcohol, death rates would be significantly higher.29
•The Cancer Council of New South Wales concludes that "If the net effect of total alcohol consumption on Australian society is considered, there is a net saving of lives due to the protective effect of low levels of consumption on cardiovascular disease

Add in the hedonic pleasure from alcohol, the social lubricant, etc. and the net effect of alcohol is a positive, admittedly with negatives, but on balance a positive.

And the vast majority of civilized cultures in the world that embrace alcohol, and reject prohibition would tend to confirm that this is a widely held conclusion.

Not all definitions of the word imply intent.

I like pie, too!

on a humorous note, im always reminded of why moderation is good. the bouncer at a bar i used to go to alot would always tell me.

"you know tom, i have some words of ahddvice for you (in his real socal gangster drawl)"

"yeah chino (like the jail. take his advice!!), whats that?"

"you wan know why i went to jail?"

"sure i guess.."

"ill tell you....smooking...drinkinggg. fffking..fightihng....."

"oh yeah, i think you've told me that one before....thanks...."

Gotta love the "you self-righteous blah blah" comments. A personal decision not to drink is just that, personal. Who cares if someone else does or does not as long as it doesn't impact you. So why must posts or stories claiming the PERSONAL benefits derived from abstinence be characterized as "self-righteous??" Are drinkers really so insecure that they care about others' rationale for not drinking??

Oh, and FYI for a lot of folks who have had problems with alcohol there is nothing self-righteous about being on the wagon. Frankly criticizing people's personal decision and struggle as "self-righteous" is an exceptionally lousy thing to do. They have walked in your shoes drinkers so maybe save the critical labeling until you have truly struggled in theirs....

Amen Brother! There is nothing worse the an ex-drinker, ex-smoker etc. Control your sh_t, if you cannot you have bigger issues ...........

The program works if you work it.... or something .....

Rehab is for quitters.....

I haven't touched alcohol in probably 20 years. Never once missed it.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2096/2...e7b47002_m.jpg

I have no problem with anything you just said. All those related studies seem only look at the moderate consumption of alcohol v. abuse of alcohol purely on a health level. What about all the other anguish that comes from the abuse of alcohol; violence, marriage breakdown, economic loss etc. Do these studies take that into account?

I`d be willing to bet you have never tasted a Pina Colada or a Bushwacker ;)

I dont drink often, but when I do, I drink to excess. That's why I don't drink often.

There's grapes in beer?

you missed the 3 that said on net, taking into account the ngatives, its a positive health benefit.

As for economic loss, you'd have to do an analysis of all the positive impact to GDP from bars, restaurnats, distilleries, wineries, wine based tourism etc., against some lost productivity form hangovers. My bet is the economic production of the alcohol industry covers a fair number of hangovers. Also just think of the loss to the titty bar industry if the patrons were sober.

As for anquish, home wrecking etc., you've got to weigh that against the pleasure that millions of people who don't abuse alcohol get from wine at a family meal, the social interaction lubricated with alcohol, the joy of awedding day champagne toast, etc.

On balance, Society has come to a judgment, the responsible use of alcohol has sufficient benefits that we're not going to prohibit it to avoid some of the negatives.

You can decide its not for you, but arguing that it's bad in general and others should abstain is simply tilting at windmills.

On a minor side note, I'm in Hawaii this week and drinking begins poolside each day about noon.

ride up that big ass climb early in the moring. Hit pool bar at noon, and it can't get much better than that.

True that. Been keeping my eyes on weather . com, scoping best day to tackle Haleakala. I would love to eat right, drink lots of water and get plenty of sleep the night before, but that's not going to happen.

Dude, context is everything and you just took what I stated out of context. My point: This thread began in a self-rightous tone. I did not imply that people who don't drink are self-rightous because think they're better blah, blah, blah.. I have nothing but respect for those that are on the wagon, working through 12-step programs, or simply gain no joy out of the process. Frankly, I have nothing but respect for anyone who decides that abstaining from alcohol is what's best for them - no biggie. BUT this thread began along the lines of "I feel so much better, ride so much faster, spend so much so less, have a more meaningful life, drinking is evil, etc." - That's the self-rightous part that kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

Gave it up for good about 4 years ago. It had got to a point where I needed a couple of drinks to feel normal...big anxiety issues. Quitting was not easy, and I needed help doing so, but I feel so much better now, am riding more, enjoying life more. If you are jealous of those who are good with a drink or two, as you note, perhaps you should think about stopping all together. The rewards can be great. Most people can handle a drink or two, and as Merlin notes, studies show this can be a healthy choice. For some, like myself, one drink always led to another and stopping completely was the only choice. Only you can figure out which group you belong to.

double post (must have had a relapse :( )

You added the "drinking is evil" statement to the OP yourself (someone else said it later). I didn't get that vibe from the OP at all. You seem to be assuming that he drank a normal/moderate amount, and is now judging those who do the same. Maybe he drank too much, and as a result of abstaining, he feels much better. Maybe he is faster. Maybe he spends a lot less money now if he did drink a lot (which is highly likely if one drinks excessively). You bring up context, but you have not thought about the contextual possibilities that the OP might be in, especially considering his 2nd post in the thread.

That being said, I don't think that one can say that alcohol itself is evil. It has no morals or sense of self. It's just a chemical.

I think the OP is experiencing excitement over taming something that might have been weighing on him. I think everyone should be happy for him, and not all of a sudden turn the discussion toward themselves and how they might be offended.

To be clear, my comments in this thread weren't addressed to the OP.

Alcohol affects different people in different ways, and I'm not going to second guess somewhat else's decision about whether drinking is appropriate for them.

I am going to, and have in this thread, take issue, with anyone, without data, that contends alcohol is per se bad or " evil".

And from my personal perspective, I tend toward the high end of the moderate range, with my problem being too many empty calories to be the weight of a bike racer.

I should have clarified a bit better.. I wasn't directing my comments towards the OP, rather the love-fest for non-drinkers that ensued. My first post was on the second page and read: "the self-rightousness of this thread makes me want to drink" (or something to that effect). From there I was accused of calling non-drinkers self-rightous. A bit later my comments were used in a context that would suggest that I am insensitive to those that have or have had drinking problems. Nothing could be further from the truth. All in all, do what works best for you.

Gotcha, thanks for clarification.

I agree that many can get on their soapbox about this issue. It boils down to a personal decision taking into account one's own habits and whether or not they are healthy habits.

See, that is exactly my point though! Expressions like that are a public revelation of PERSONAL experiences with quitting. In there is no comparative language relating the experience to that of anyone else. Without that necessary comparison to others there is no "self-righteous" tone. Yet time and time again people hear these words from people who quit and automatically interpret it as "self-righteous." Just because that is their story doesn't mean it is yours or that they think it should be yours.

See the distinction? I know most people here probably respect folks who need to quit. My concern is more with the all too common tendency of drinkers to automatically judge new "quit stories of success" as self-righteous even when they are not. Especially true when the story teller is not known to have quit due to a "problem..."

Where did I say others should abstain from it? You can drink yourself stupid and I couldn't care less. In my opinion and experience, however, the stuff is evil.

Yeah, good luck with the responsible bit though.

oh slim, this is like a whole new carbon discussion for you.
a recent longitudinal study (cant remember if it was a university in socal) showed no statistically significant increase for cancer rates or respiratory damage from even high frequency cannabis smokers.

of course, if you want to be super healthy, you could always eat it, drink it, rub it in, or vaporize it.

there are plenty of good documentaries and peer-reviewed scholarly articles detailing a wide range of its benefits, and lack of significant
health risks. of course, if you are using old gubbamint research which did not use controls for individuals with family or personal histories
of psychological disorders, then its understandable why you might make such a ludicrous claim.

the next thing you know, you will make claims that lsd and certain mushrooms have no medical benefits, and that they will make you go crazy.

oddly enough, prior to its 1930s prohibition, cannabis was often used to treat asthma.

and natural tobacco isnt too bad for you, and alcohol is not either (for the record, i have touched tobacco, and am not fond of alcohol).

some good quick links from the folks at norml: http://norml.org/library/health-repo...alth-mythology