The aerobar syndrome
#101
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I ride double centuries, and when I see a rider with aero bars I stay far away. They tend to be the wobble riders. They are sometimes strong, but generally clueless about what's going on around them.
They may be great in some situations, but in the hands of the incompetent, they just act as stupidity multipliers.
They may be great in some situations, but in the hands of the incompetent, they just act as stupidity multipliers.
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So I guess the OP has never used the IAB position (invisible aero bar) before?
I don't have aerobars on my bike. I'd put them on if I were to do a TT or tri, but I do frequently get into an IAB position when I'm riding solo or out front going hard. It is nice to sometimes rest on forearms, giving my hands a break.
I don't have aerobars on my bike. I'd put them on if I were to do a TT or tri, but I do frequently get into an IAB position when I'm riding solo or out front going hard. It is nice to sometimes rest on forearms, giving my hands a break.
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The slower guys in the back may indeed be a bit wobbly, but on all long events I've done it isn't rare to see the leaders on aerobars, and they certainly aren't wobbly. I placed quite nicely in both the last double, and the last century I did, and all the guys off the front in the double were on aerobars. On the century 2 of the top 5 were on aerobars.
All the guys I ride with, who aren't necessarily road racing guys, are eminently capable with aerobars and fast enough to ride a 22-24mph paceline no problemo sans aerobars.
#104
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The slower guys in the back may indeed be a bit wobbly, but on all long events I've done it isn't rare to see the leaders on aerobars, and they certainly aren't wobbly. I placed quite nicely in both the last double, and the last century I did, and all the guys off the front in the double were on aerobars. On the century 2 of the top 5 were on aerobars.
If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
If someone can do a century on aerobars they are not in a good TT position and could just a likely complete the same distance, in the same time without the aerobars and with the benefit of a good fit (position).
Most people using aerobars when not doing a Tri or TT are using as a crutch to compensate for poor fit or less than optimal positioning (or a few for medical reasons). The bars aren't making them any faster then they would be otherwise because they are not being used for their intended purpose.
Think 'lipstick on a pig'.
#105
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In fact, you need to go at least that fast to even make a paceline work otherwise there's little draft and it becomes a yo-yo festival.
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And for what it's worth, a paceline has to be 26mph for it to even begin to drop me, in general, so no, I don't find 22-24mph fast for a paceline, but this isn't a pissing contest.
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Yeah...
If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
If someone can do a century on aerobars they are not in a good TT position and could just a likely complete the same distance, in the same time without the aerobars and with the benefit of a good fit (position).
Most people using aerobars when not doing a Tri or TT are using as a crutch to compensate for poor fit or less than optimal positioning (or a few for medical reasons). The bars aren't making them any faster then they would be otherwise because they are not being used for their intended purpose.
Think 'lipstick on a pig'.
If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
If someone can do a century on aerobars they are not in a good TT position and could just a likely complete the same distance, in the same time without the aerobars and with the benefit of a good fit (position).
Most people using aerobars when not doing a Tri or TT are using as a crutch to compensate for poor fit or less than optimal positioning (or a few for medical reasons). The bars aren't making them any faster then they would be otherwise because they are not being used for their intended purpose.
Think 'lipstick on a pig'.
I've done aerolab testing for *my* positions and I know what works for me. Maybe you're correct for how you'd have your bars setup. To imply it's some sort of all-or-nothing hardcore position where you have to be slammed and uncomfortable to get any benefit over drops is simply incorrect.
#108
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Riders 'at that capability' are slow. That's not even baseline racing speed. I'm leery of riders 'at that capability' even without the though of aerobars.
And, even for riders who consider themselves fast there is always a bit of sketchiness for the first ride with aerobars if they've been off your bike for a while.
I've done a lot of ITT and TTT over the years and I always do the first ride with aero equipment alone just to get the feel back before I jump in with a group.
Bottom line aerobars and group rides don't mix unless you are paid to do it for a living. There's no point and it just adds a ton of risk.
#109
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I've done aerolab testing for *my* positions and I know what works for me. Maybe you're correct for how you'd have your bars setup. To imply it's some sort of all-or-nothing hardcore position where you have to be slammed and uncomfortable to get any benefit over drops is simply incorrect.
#110
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Seriously?
Riders 'at that capability' are slow. That's not even baseline racing speed. I'm leery of riders 'at that capability' even without the though of aerobars.
And, even for riders who consider themselves fast there is always a bit of sketchiness for the first ride with aerobars if they've been off your bike for a while.
I've done a lot of ITT and TTT over the years and I always do the first ride with aero equipment alone just to get the feel back before I jump in with a group.
Bottom line aerobars and group rides don't mix unless you are paid to do it for a living. There's no point and it just adds a ton of risk.
Riders 'at that capability' are slow. That's not even baseline racing speed. I'm leery of riders 'at that capability' even without the though of aerobars.
And, even for riders who consider themselves fast there is always a bit of sketchiness for the first ride with aerobars if they've been off your bike for a while.
I've done a lot of ITT and TTT over the years and I always do the first ride with aero equipment alone just to get the feel back before I jump in with a group.
Bottom line aerobars and group rides don't mix unless you are paid to do it for a living. There's no point and it just adds a ton of risk.
22-26mph in a paceline isn't fast compared to a Cat3 and above racing rider, but that would be considered very fast for most noncompetitive roadie rides. I live in Norcal where there are tons of bike groups from nonracing to racing, so I'm pretty qualified to comment on what typical speeds are, and I can assure you that 22-26mph is wayyy faster than any nonracing roadie paceline would be, even the "A" group. There is not ONE single non-racing team ride I can point to that goes this fast for more than a few miles, even on the 'fast' short ride days. (There's a paceline to Menlo Park that averages 24ish, but it's usually frequented by ex-racers or masters racers despite it not being a racing club ride.)
The racers go this speed and higher, yes, but if you're limiting your discussion of cycling to only racing roadies, you shouldn't even be commenting in this thread about aerobars used in a FREDly manner by folks who would never have a chance at keeping up at this pace.
#111
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That may be true but not for the reasons you think - smiley face.
If you are correct then these riders have no need for aerobars. Aero equipment is not a substitute for training or experience. What I'm hearing sounds like the Tri mentality I used to hear all the time when I worked in retail.
It goes like this:
1. I am not fast.
2. I want fast.
3. I will buy fast.
The result? A still not fast rider who thinks they are fast with expensive go-fast stuff cobbled to their bike wobbling all over the road posing a danger to themselves and others as they crash for no particular reason other than their inability to ride safely in a straight line with all their new aero-crutches.
Not all FREDS are slow. Some FREDS ride lots and can suck wheel pretty well. I've known plenty of them.
22-26mph in a paceline isn't fast compared to a Cat3 and above racing rider, but that would be considered very fast for most noncompetitive roadie rides. I live in Norcal where there are tons of bike groups from nonracing to racing, so I'm pretty qualified to comment on what typical speeds are, and I can assure you that 22-26mph is wayyy faster than any nonracing roadie paceline would be, even the "A" group. There is not ONE single non-racing team ride I can point to that goes this fast for more than a few miles, even on the 'fast' short ride days. (There's a paceline to Menlo Park that averages 24ish, but it's usually frequented by ex-racers or masters racers despite it not being a racing club ride.)
It goes like this:
1. I am not fast.
2. I want fast.
3. I will buy fast.
The result? A still not fast rider who thinks they are fast with expensive go-fast stuff cobbled to their bike wobbling all over the road posing a danger to themselves and others as they crash for no particular reason other than their inability to ride safely in a straight line with all their new aero-crutches.
Not all FREDS are slow. Some FREDS ride lots and can suck wheel pretty well. I've known plenty of them.
#112
Vandalized since 2002
If you are correct then these riders have no need for aerobars. Aero equipment is not a substitute for training or experience. What I'm hearing sounds like the Tri mentality I used to hear all the time when I worked in retail.
It goes like this:
1. I am not fast.
2. I want fast.
3. I will buy fast.
It goes like this:
1. I am not fast.
2. I want fast.
3. I will buy fast.
#114
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Honestly, it's a pet peeve of mine and I may be projecting a bit and I'm too lazy to go back through the thread and see if you're right.
#115
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Fixed it for you.
You're deluding yourself if you think many triathletes or cyclists don't put in the hours to train. I feel like SoCal is a hotbed of cycling and triathlons and nearly everybody I come across with aerobars or fancy wheels is out there TRAINING hard. You can buy some speed as well as work out, they are not mutually exclusive.
My w/kg put me around a Cat3 on the e-wang, so I'm not that fast, but I have a fancy bike and fancy wheels (and often, clip ons!)...I bought some speed. Financially I don't have to wait until I'm PRO to have fancy stuff, so why should I? I still put in my hours to train.
I assume your "what is an aerolab" comment was rhetorical, so I'll leave that one alone.
You're deluding yourself if you think many triathletes or cyclists don't put in the hours to train. I feel like SoCal is a hotbed of cycling and triathlons and nearly everybody I come across with aerobars or fancy wheels is out there TRAINING hard. You can buy some speed as well as work out, they are not mutually exclusive.
My w/kg put me around a Cat3 on the e-wang, so I'm not that fast, but I have a fancy bike and fancy wheels (and often, clip ons!)...I bought some speed. Financially I don't have to wait until I'm PRO to have fancy stuff, so why should I? I still put in my hours to train.
I assume your "what is an aerolab" comment was rhetorical, so I'll leave that one alone.
#116
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Yeah...
If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
If someone can do a century on aerobars they are not in a good TT position and could just a likely complete the same distance, in the same time without the aerobars and with the benefit of a good fit (position).
Most people using aerobars when not doing a Tri or TT are using as a crutch to compensate for poor fit or less than optimal positioning (or a few for medical reasons). The bars aren't making them any faster then they would be otherwise because they are not being used for their intended purpose.
Think 'lipstick on a pig'.
If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
If someone can do a century on aerobars they are not in a good TT position and could just a likely complete the same distance, in the same time without the aerobars and with the benefit of a good fit (position).
Most people using aerobars when not doing a Tri or TT are using as a crutch to compensate for poor fit or less than optimal positioning (or a few for medical reasons). The bars aren't making them any faster then they would be otherwise because they are not being used for their intended purpose.
Think 'lipstick on a pig'.
Well then again maybe it's just to provide another position, and increase comfort just by allowing them to move around.
#117
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I want to agree with you, because I think they're silly...and a few months ago I would have. But lately I've been noticing that the guy who post the really fast times in the brevets often use clip-on aerobars on their bikes. So...I'm starting to think there might be something to it.
Well then again maybe it's just to provide another position, and increase comfort just by allowing them to move around.
Well then again maybe it's just to provide another position, and increase comfort just by allowing them to move around.
#118
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Train? Right, in the pool or running. You don't need to train on the bike much. Just buy the speed, non?
See above comment.
I have no problem at all with people buying fancy stuff and enjoying the heck out of it. You might even say I make a living out of it and I do it, too. I have a computer faster than I need, I buy clothes nicer than need to cover my man bits or keep me warm and I drink wine finer than needed to give me a warm fuzzy feeling and love for my fellow man.
We are in complete agreement here.
No, I was serious.
I know what a wind tunnel is but I am curious as to what makes an aerolab an aerolab and not a wind tunnel. Is it the way you hold you mouth?
You're deluding yourself if you think many triathletes or cyclists don't put in the hours to train. I feel like SoCal is a hotbed of cycling and triathlons and nearly everybody I come across with aerobars or fancy wheels is out there TRAINING hard. You can buy some speed as well as work out, they are not mutually exclusive.
We are in complete agreement here.
I know what a wind tunnel is but I am curious as to what makes an aerolab an aerolab and not a wind tunnel. Is it the way you hold you mouth?
#119
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I was in a shop today and overheard a customer tell the shop employee that they were looking for a faster road bike. I know I'm making some assumptions here but I took this to mean, a) he already had a road bike, b) he felt it was too slow, and c) he felt that he could buy a faster road bike. I had to bite my tongue to keep myself from saying that he should just save his money and work on the engine.
I'm all for working on the engine (heck, I eschew my Cervelo bike in favor of riding my stock Giant Defy3 Sora bike that's heavier all the time and don't race with aero gear) but there is one very true reality that I think has been lost in the thread:
Aerobars are no question the most effective speed upgrade for your bike that you can buy. Like 3x more effective than race wheels, and nearly 10x more effective than a fancy aero framed road bike. In fact, you would need to spend like $3000 in wheels, aero frame, skinsuit just to equal the aero effect of a single $80 clip on aerobar set. There is NO other bike upgrade that will give you this sort of speed upgrade (about 1mph speed gain.)
So when you look at it like that, for someone who's looking to go for the best bang for buck solution for actual real speed purchased with their wallet, aerobars takes the #1,#2, and #3 spots. (Obviously, not a good idea if you want to use this in fast pacelines or mass start races duh.)
I'd tell anyone who is interested going faster in their solo rides, or even if they're riding with loose groups (not paceline) with lots of space, that aerobars are pretty much the only reasonably priced way to buy speed on the bike. (Aero helmet works too, but nowhere near as good as the aerobars.) Even if you had $10k to spend on speed upgrades, the $80 aerobar alone would trump all the discs and toys you could buy with that $10k to upgrade a regular road bike sans aerobars.
So as critical as folks here are about 'buying free speed', aerobars are pretty hard to argue against for non-group riding if you're looking for real speed gains. Clip on aerobars are so inexpensive that it really is buying free speed. A $600 Sora-equipped road bike with aerobars will crush a $10k road bike without aerobars in a time trial with equal riders - it wouldn't even be a contest.
#120
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If you are riding a century on aerobars then they aren't set up correctly.
The point of aerobars is to be aero (by this I mean in a TT position). This is NOT a comfortable position for extended periods of time because it is an extremely aggressive racing position.
The aero benefit of aerobars has nothing to do with position. For any given "fit" (back position) on a bike, aerobars will reduce your frontal area by moving your arms inwards and thereby reducing drag. It doesn't matter if your back is horizontal or at 45 degrees, you will gain an aero advantage.
#121
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Aerobars are no question the most effective speed upgrade for your bike that you can buy. Like 3x more effective than race wheels, and nearly 10x more effective than a fancy aero framed road bike. In fact, you would need to spend like $3000 in wheels, aero frame, skinsuit just to equal the aero effect of a single $80 clip on aerobar set. There is NO other bike upgrade that will give you this sort of speed upgrade (about 1mph speed gain.)
Then I'd throw in a good fit.
Then I'd throw in a proper training plan that includes structured intervals.
So, that puts aerobars as #4 at best.
#122
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I was racing before aerobars even existed. I think I get how they work.
Putting aerobars on a lawn chair won't make it faster.
Oh, yeah, and ask Jonathon Boyer about RAAM and aerobars: LINK.
Atlantic City, New Jersey - America's first ever Tour de France competitor, Jonathan "Jock" Boyer, of Monterey, Calif., made a successful return to the Race Across America, adding a Solo Enduro victory in the 3,043 epic to his first RAAM win back 1985.
Arriving in Atlantic City at 1:35 p.m. on June 21, Boyer was tired, but happy with his time of 10 days and 52 minutes.
This made him the first winner of the new Solo Enduro division of racing, in which riders were mandated to take at least 40 hours of stops.
For Boyer, who first won RAAM aged 32, his return to the race 20 years later was dogged by difficulties.
The problems began on the second day, when extended time in the aero position of his time trial bike started to place excessive stress on his neck muscles.
Within 48 hours he started to need a head support, which was initially fabricated as a cardboard pillar taped to his bars and later replaced by a proper neck brace.
Putting aerobars on a lawn chair won't make it faster.
Oh, yeah, and ask Jonathon Boyer about RAAM and aerobars: LINK.
Atlantic City, New Jersey - America's first ever Tour de France competitor, Jonathan "Jock" Boyer, of Monterey, Calif., made a successful return to the Race Across America, adding a Solo Enduro victory in the 3,043 epic to his first RAAM win back 1985.
Arriving in Atlantic City at 1:35 p.m. on June 21, Boyer was tired, but happy with his time of 10 days and 52 minutes.
This made him the first winner of the new Solo Enduro division of racing, in which riders were mandated to take at least 40 hours of stops.
For Boyer, who first won RAAM aged 32, his return to the race 20 years later was dogged by difficulties.
The problems began on the second day, when extended time in the aero position of his time trial bike started to place excessive stress on his neck muscles.
Within 48 hours he started to need a head support, which was initially fabricated as a cardboard pillar taped to his bars and later replaced by a proper neck brace.
#123
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That won't make you faster but we can debate that in another thread.
I'd say clipless pedals trump aerobars as the first upgrade that adds speed esp if you factor in hills.
Then I'd throw in a good fit.
Then I'd throw in a proper training plan that includes structured intervals.
So, that puts aerobars as #4 at best.
I'd say clipless pedals trump aerobars as the first upgrade that adds speed esp if you factor in hills.
Then I'd throw in a good fit.
Then I'd throw in a proper training plan that includes structured intervals.
So, that puts aerobars as #4 at best.
Bob's just now looking to disagree with me intentionally.
All the thing you mention are assumed to be 'given' for fair comparisons. I'm not comparing an untrained rider to a trained rider, or a clipped in pedal to an unclipped one, duh. Show me one 'aero speed benefit' comparison test that does what you're implying.
Aerobars are #1,2, and #3 (and likely more) in all FAIR and REASONABLY designed aero gear tests. I don't know any aero testing for speed gains that would test using big differences in training, pedals, or basic fit because those are assumed to be standard.
If you're going to be that difficult, I'll one up you and say that upgrading from a tricycle to a road bike trumps all the things you mention - no amount of training, clipless pedals, or training plan, will allow someone to ride as fast on a tricycle than on a road bike. So don't intentionally take things out of context just to make a point.
#124
Vandalized since 2002
But aerobars are still cheaper and don't require intervals.
#125
Vandalized since 2002
Bob's just now looking to disagree with me intentionally.
All the thing you mention are assumed to be 'given' for fair comparisons. I'm not comparing an untrained rider to a trained rider, or a clipped in pedal to an unclipped one, duh. Show me one 'aero speed benefit' comparison test that does what you're implying.
Aerobars are #1,2, and #3 (and likely more) in all FAIR and REASONABLY designed aero gear tests. I don't know any aero testing for speed gains that would test using big differences in training, pedals, or basic fit because those are assumed to be standard.
If you're going to be that difficult, I'll one up you and say that upgrading from a tricycle to a road bike trumps all the things you mention - no amount of training, clipless pedals, or training plan, will allow someone to ride as fast on a tricycle than on a road bike. So don't intentionally take things out of context just to make a point.
All the thing you mention are assumed to be 'given' for fair comparisons. I'm not comparing an untrained rider to a trained rider, or a clipped in pedal to an unclipped one, duh. Show me one 'aero speed benefit' comparison test that does what you're implying.
Aerobars are #1,2, and #3 (and likely more) in all FAIR and REASONABLY designed aero gear tests. I don't know any aero testing for speed gains that would test using big differences in training, pedals, or basic fit because those are assumed to be standard.
If you're going to be that difficult, I'll one up you and say that upgrading from a tricycle to a road bike trumps all the things you mention - no amount of training, clipless pedals, or training plan, will allow someone to ride as fast on a tricycle than on a road bike. So don't intentionally take things out of context just to make a point.