Teach me proper pedaling! (please)
05-14-12 | 01:15 PM
#26
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
I don't agree at all with merlin.
People just think that is just and go out with 53x15 in a fix gear and the cruel reality is that fix gear can help or can mess you up if you don't it right. With kids you have to start with 42x20 or so, so they get used to move the legs fast, that's all they need to learn. With adults is similar but the difference is the intensity and work outs while pedaling.
With adults you start with 42x18 like for 2 or 3 weeks in kind'a hilly terrain and maybe 1 hour tops.. then you swap the work out and the gear for something else... at the end of 3 months the guy at least should be able to do 100 km with 42x16 (this is a killer) around 18 to 22 mph average w/o any problems. Once the guy can handle that it is ready to go because for sure the cadence is already programed in his head and legs (90 to 120 rpm). 3 months of fix gear is a killer... but if done wrong can make just the opposite.
As for the momentum that melin talks, well that's so relative that i don't even want to start arguing it
When i started cycling at age 12 the 1st thing they did to me (us) was put us in a strict regime of fix gear w/o brakes... you have to handle the gears, the pedaling back and forth, learn to stop, skid and stuff... in a couple of weeks we were getting the 42x20 stopped in a dime, no hands "sur place" and stuff... the other thing they did to us was to take the straps (back in the day we used cages and straps) out the pedals. We had nothing else than the cleats to keep the feet in place in the pedals. Result? after a month the pedaling was super rounded because to be able to accelerate we were forced to pedal rounded, the other benefit is that your pacemaking is like a clock, no changes in speed what so ever, thing is pretty common between weekend riders. Try to sprint w/o the straps in a 45 degree velodrome...
This is when I argue the momentum part because even thought momentum helps, if the pedaling technique is not right the momentum will eat you and then you have squared pedaling when tired, then you can't accelerate at all... merlin says that momentum carries you but up to some point because after 35 km/h you really need to push it because the momentum turns to drag and the bikes doesn't accelerates no more unless you go downhill.
The other situation is that if you did fix gear with 46x16 then that explains what you say, the other thing is that you shouldn't feel the momentum dragging you if the legs were fast enough... momentum wont be noticeable if the legs are fast because you move the legs at the same pace. It is interesting what he says tho because it depends on how fast the rider goes too... with fix gear if you need to accelerate you have to keep up with the momentum and the worse part is that the pedaling has to be right or the acceleration will suck and simply nothing will happens... my best guess is that merlin lacks of agility or he is doing the fix gear wrong.
Good luck...
People just think that is just and go out with 53x15 in a fix gear and the cruel reality is that fix gear can help or can mess you up if you don't it right. With kids you have to start with 42x20 or so, so they get used to move the legs fast, that's all they need to learn. With adults is similar but the difference is the intensity and work outs while pedaling.
With adults you start with 42x18 like for 2 or 3 weeks in kind'a hilly terrain and maybe 1 hour tops.. then you swap the work out and the gear for something else... at the end of 3 months the guy at least should be able to do 100 km with 42x16 (this is a killer) around 18 to 22 mph average w/o any problems. Once the guy can handle that it is ready to go because for sure the cadence is already programed in his head and legs (90 to 120 rpm). 3 months of fix gear is a killer... but if done wrong can make just the opposite.
As for the momentum that melin talks, well that's so relative that i don't even want to start arguing it
When i started cycling at age 12 the 1st thing they did to me (us) was put us in a strict regime of fix gear w/o brakes... you have to handle the gears, the pedaling back and forth, learn to stop, skid and stuff... in a couple of weeks we were getting the 42x20 stopped in a dime, no hands "sur place" and stuff... the other thing they did to us was to take the straps (back in the day we used cages and straps) out the pedals. We had nothing else than the cleats to keep the feet in place in the pedals. Result? after a month the pedaling was super rounded because to be able to accelerate we were forced to pedal rounded, the other benefit is that your pacemaking is like a clock, no changes in speed what so ever, thing is pretty common between weekend riders. Try to sprint w/o the straps in a 45 degree velodrome...
This is when I argue the momentum part because even thought momentum helps, if the pedaling technique is not right the momentum will eat you and then you have squared pedaling when tired, then you can't accelerate at all... merlin says that momentum carries you but up to some point because after 35 km/h you really need to push it because the momentum turns to drag and the bikes doesn't accelerates no more unless you go downhill.
The other situation is that if you did fix gear with 46x16 then that explains what you say, the other thing is that you shouldn't feel the momentum dragging you if the legs were fast enough... momentum wont be noticeable if the legs are fast because you move the legs at the same pace. It is interesting what he says tho because it depends on how fast the rider goes too... with fix gear if you need to accelerate you have to keep up with the momentum and the worse part is that the pedaling has to be right or the acceleration will suck and simply nothing will happens... my best guess is that merlin lacks of agility or he is doing the fix gear wrong.
Good luck...
Fixed Gear:
I will be the first person to tell you that riding on the track will help you to be a smoother
and faster rider for any discipline. Would I advocate fixed gear training on the road as a
means to improve pedal technique? No! In my opinion, you can still have terrible
pedaling technique on a fixed gear bike. The construction of cranks does most of the
"making your pedal stroke round". You can still push down on each leg and not use your
hamstrings at all with a fixed gear. It's not that fixed gear bikes are inherently bad it's just
that you still have to be focused. It's possible to have good or bad pedal technique on a
free wheel or fixed gear system. If you want good technique, you have to be willing to
make a conscious choice. The bike won't do the job for you.
https://www.elitewave.com/PedaltechElitewaveWeb.pdf
The point being is that the fixed gear does the work for you, even if you don't have good mechanics, and thus, the pedaling "circles" on the fixed gear doesn't necessarily carry over to a bike with a freehub.
Hence, the traditional approach of doing base miles on fixed gear, which used to be common 50 years ago, is no longr in favor.
Single leg drills (which are really the opposite of fixed gear) and high cadence intervals are going to be more effective tools for developing your spin than fixed gear, because the bike isn't helping you.
Nothing wrong with riding fixed gear if you like it, it's just not the panacea for developing your pedaling that people used to make it out to be.
And FWIW, I both have a fixed gear bike, and have won a few bike races and field sprints, so I must not be completely lacking.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-14-12 | 01:19 PM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Orlando, FL
Bikes: LeMond Zurich
kind of like how hairnet mentioned "scraping crap off the bottom of your shoe" in the 2nd post, keeping the sole of your foot parallel to the ground as you go through the pedal stroke.
again, I'm no pro and neither is the one I garnered this advice from....if I'm wrong please correct me. Having a base of proper form while I'm still in my first year of serious riding would be nice.
05-14-12 | 01:56 PM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,201
Likes: 289
From: Vancouver, BC
It's the reason that true 'spinners' hate riding bikes with only platform pedals. It's almost dangerous to do. Immediately, the spinning cyclist is going to have his upward moving foot lift off of the pedal because he's trying to apply the positive circular force to that pedal, while not being attached.
05-14-12 | 01:57 PM
#29
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
Likes: 2
So you're saying that it's ONLY possible to pedal all the way around one-footed when you're clipped in? This would save me some sanity trying going all the way around on a platform pedal. I wonder how much clips or straps cost... Hope they're not too expensive.
05-14-12 | 02:43 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,315
Likes: 1,781
From: Far beyond the pale horizon.
05-14-12 | 03:40 PM
#31
blah blah blah
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,520
Likes: 0
From: https://joomla.bonzerwork.com.au/inde...=69&Itemid=105
Fig 3: pedal angle and timing of torque: The orientation of the pedal and the resultant force vector are shown at 20 positions of the crank cycle. It is interesting to note the orientation of the force vector during the first half of the revolution and the absence of pull up forces in the second half.
I think this same result has been found in other studies as well. On normal bike cranks, nobody is really pulling up enough to generate an upwards force on the "backstroke" of the pedaling motion; you are just lessening the amount you are pushing down, and that's why people call it "unweighting" the upwards traveling leg/foot. The force diagram shows that the foot is still pushing downwards on the backstroke... This is not to say that single leg pedaling drills are not worthwhile either...
Fig 3: pedal angle and timing of torque: The orientation of the pedal and the resultant force vector are shown at 20 positions of the crank cycle. It is interesting to note the orientation of the force vector during the first half of the revolution and the absence of pull up forces in the second half.
I think this same result has been found in other studies as well. On normal bike cranks, nobody is really pulling up enough to generate an upwards force on the "backstroke" of the pedaling motion; you are just lessening the amount you are pushing down, and that's why people call it "unweighting" the upwards traveling leg/foot. The force diagram shows that the foot is still pushing downwards on the backstroke... This is not to say that single leg pedaling drills are not worthwhile either...
05-14-12 | 03:55 PM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,315
Likes: 1,781
From: Far beyond the pale horizon.
I think this same result has been found in other studies as well. On normal bike cranks, nobody is really pulling up enough to generate an upwards force on the "backstroke" of the pedaling motion; you are just lessening the amount you are pushing down, and that's why people call it "unweighting" the upwards traveling leg/foot. The force diagram shows that the foot is still pushing downwards on the backstroke... This is not to say that single leg pedaling drills are not worthwhile either...
Humans unweight (lift) their legs all the time (when walking and running), which means the muscles for doing that task are well-developed.
If you can unweight the non-power leg, the power applied on the downstroke is going into moving the bike rather than some of it being used to lift the other leg.
Considering that (generally) the maximum power that you can apply is about your body weight, the extra propulsion power you can apply by lifting the non-power leg is about leg-weight/body-weight more (which isn't trivial).
Many riders don't lift the non-power leg.
It seems it would be hard to apply a lot of power on the upstroke routinely (and it might not be so good for your joints).
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-14-12 at 04:01 PM.
05-15-12 | 01:01 PM
#33
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
Likes: 2
So what about in sprint races, is the same pedaling form as you guys describe expected? Or is it impractical for high speed purposes? Seems like it'd be impossible to do anything but mash when jumped out of the saddle, but what about seated sprints?
Thanks
-Michael
Thanks
-Michael
05-16-12 | 07:29 AM
#35
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
(and when you say "sprint races", the only races that would be defined as "sprint races", setting aside the odd exhibition race, are done on the track with fixed gear bikes)
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-17-12 | 09:10 AM
#36
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
Likes: 2
Even when you're standing??
05-17-12 | 01:06 PM
#37
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
Talking to a local track sprinter who I believe was on the olympic track team some time ago, he described to us the 180 rpm intervals he used to train at...That's seated of course...but it gives some perspective of what 'high cadence' means. 130 seems fast to us, but really it's just getting started for many track sprinters.
-Jeremy
-Jeremy
05-17-12 | 01:29 PM
#38
Descends like a rock
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,034
Likes: 16
From: Fort Worth, TX
Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer
Anyone use those cranks that only engage one way? I'm forgetting the name of them right now, but they are ratched so they only engage in the forward direction. In other words, if you take your foot off one pedal, it will just drop and hand while you pedal with the other. You are forced to actually lift the pedal up for the next stroke. It doesnt come up on its own because the left and right arms are not connected. Seems like it would be maddening at first but could be very useful for form. Kind of the exact opposite extreme of fixed gear - nothing moves on its own unless you push it.
05-17-12 | 01:33 PM
#39
Descends like a rock
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,034
Likes: 16
From: Fort Worth, TX
Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer
05-17-12 | 01:45 PM
#40
pan y agua
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,812
Likes: 1,234
From: Jacksonville
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
^ There are several threads on Power Cranks. ( and big p***ng matches on WW) I think that to the extent there is any consensus on them its essentially that they may be of some benefit as a training aid, but that you likely can get the same benefit for the most part doing one legged drills, and that they cost a lot.
Some of the early claims the guy behind power cranks made were a bit outlandish, which I think hurt the credibility of the product in some people's eyes.
Some of the early claims the guy behind power cranks made were a bit outlandish, which I think hurt the credibility of the product in some people's eyes.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
05-23-12 | 05:09 PM
#42
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
Likes: 2
Ohhhhhh my gosh... So I just biked for only 3 miles, this time focusing on "scraping the crap off the bottom of my feet" (at the expense of most quad and ham usage, felt like i was going all calves this time), and HOO BOY, my calves felt like they were going to explode before even the two-mile mark!!! While I'm glad my tiny calves got some decent work today, I find it difficult to scrap crap off bottom of feet while still applying a steady around-the-clock force to the crank. Any advice??? (Now I know how many cyclists have football-sized calves!)
05-23-12 | 05:17 PM
#43
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,201
Likes: 289
From: Vancouver, BC
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
szewczykm
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
5
06-03-12 03:22 PM
