Fox Farm

I think that you need to time yourself and really compare the numbers rather than go on feel.

jamesdak 

Ok, saddle height is same. Saddle fore/aft in relation to the BB is the same. Seat angle is level for both. Handlebar to center of saddle is almost a 1/4 inch shorter on the Scott. Saddle to handlebar drop is 1/2 more on the Scott. Both bikes run the exact same pedals. Oh and the drop on the Scott handlebar (how much the handlebars curve down) is 1/4 less than the bars on the Trek. Both are the same width. How's that for comparing the fit? I am a noob but it seems pretty close to me. With bad knees I focus more on the relation of my knees to the bottom bracket than I do the reach issues and such.

jamesdak 

Times were faster, I ride this route often and track time, cadence, avg speed, max speed, cal, etc on all my rides.

jamesdak 

Yeah, even measurements are close I think something just works out better for my body. Difference in seat tube angle is .2 degrees.

grolby

That much more drop to the handlebar could well change how much you recruit your glutes in the pedal stroke. It's changing your hip angle at least a little. Like I said, no way that I could tell you that's the difference, but it's not totally implausible that the fit on the Scott lets you produce more power.

Nick Bain

.25 inches would make a difference. I am also on board with the new bike euphoria translating to faster riding.

What gear combinations and speeds did he go up in?

SlowOlympian

+1

Parson

I guess someone who "sucks" at climbing is relative. To me, anyone who can go 5 km at a steady 5% and say it's not hard is pretty good. As I improve, hopefully I'll look back and be able to say the same.

bobonker

Bob

Commodus

New bikes are always faster.

FrenchFit 

I climb much better using a standard double than a compact, and that's why I prefer a triple on climbing bikes; the small ring purely for bailing-out. I have no scientific explanation why, and frankly...it doesn't bother me.

pallen

If you're not first, you're last!

redlude97

Since you track speed and cadence why don't you compare those stats during the climb?

jamesdak 

Good point, I track with a Node 2 computer but also carry my handheld Garmin sometimes. Carrying different climbing rides up these routes I seem to be running about 1 to 1.5 mph faster at pretty much any given point in the ride. Can't compare cadence point by point though but I figure if I am running the same cadence as normal yet in a harder gear than that would explain the speed difference.

So, the real question is what to do with this knowledge. Does it make sense to swap the compact over to the Scott and see what that gets me? I am doing the 206 mile LOTOJA race in the beginning of September and it has a ton of climbing. It seems like the Scott is the bike to use now but worry about blowing up and then not having enough gears to fall back on. It's one thing to climb 12 miles or so but entirely something else when you have 30 to 40 miles of climbing. Decisions, decisions...

digibud

Faster speed is because of producing more power and/or better aerodynamics. It's not the compact, that's a given. It may be the influence of the compact in terms of your choice of gears but those gears are available on the the triple too, I would assume. So either it's your choice of gearing or the bike frame/geometry since you have pretty much ruled out bike fit per se. But it is quite possible it is a psychological response to the "faster" bike. We do AMAZING trips in our brain on exactly this kind f thing. Knowing it is a "racing" bike may very well be all there is too it, regardless of how much you think it is happening without any "attempt" on your part. "Power Braclets" and crap like that can WORK, not because they have any power but due solely to a placebo effect which in itself can have a measurable effect. There is no way anyone on the forum can tell if it is bike geometry, better stiffness (translating to more efficient power utilization), minor changes to bike positioning some other combination of effects. And it would take some serious, scientific double blind testing to truly rule out a placebo effect. Obviously that's not really going to be an option and most people when presented with such data won't even believe it! If you are in a lower crouch and better aerodynamic position that would be my first guess, combined with different geometry to allow better muscle use. It's great you're interested in this and attempting to understand it so enjoy the exploration and keep it light and smile! To reduce the placebo effect I'd use the same saddle on both bikes with the same tape and bars and ride blindfolded for 30 miles with each bike....
Personally I wouldn't swap drive trains. I might do some longer hilly rides with the compact and see if you hold up well...

ericm979

What's your HR on the climbs with the different bikes? Timing yourself on the climbs is less inaccurate than randomly glancing at the speedometer. That's too likely to be affected by your memory and by sample bias (i.e. many of the "20 mph average" riders here).

An easier experiment than swapping cranks is to ride the same climbs on the compact crank bike using one cog higher than normal.

Farby

12 miles at 8% wasn't hard. I call bs. I wud need a hotel layover. But then again I really suck at climbing.

jamesdak 

LOL, so would I! Everyone is equating my easier comment to mean easy. What I met was less painful than usual. I don't think climbing will every be easy for me. Especially judging by how quickly some dude passed me on the mountain last week. He was out of sight in no time and he did make it look easy.

jamesdak 

One limitation I have is that my computer tracks AVG and Max HR as well as time spent in each zone. But it does not track HR at any given point in the ride. I carry a handheld GPS sometimes that lets me track speed at any point in the ride but not HR and Cadence.

And the climbs am making note of the improvement on are ones I normally ride with the Compact crank bike. I just picked the other bike up the past week and have been trying it out. I can ride the compact in one higher cog, in fact I always try to keep the last one as a bailout. But for some reason I am carrying a higher avg speed as shown on the GPS up the climbs. Maybe getting up quicker is why I feel fresher?

mechBgon

As odd as it sounds, I also feel a little more efficient with the chain at a lower "voltage," if we can use the electrical analogy. Where I notice the effect the most, would be climbing in a mountain bike's granny ring and perhaps the third cog from the largest, then switching to the middle ring and finding the closest equivalent. There's a *lot* of tension on the chain when it's on a 22-tooth chainring while you throw your best effort into 180mm crankarms on a 30% grade. It literally feels stretchy underfoot.

I'll shortly be trampled by a herd of armchair experts wielding scientific proof that it could not possibly make a difference, but whatever I gravitate towards the big ring when practical. Hey, they take longer to wear out, right?

richard_dupp

Just out of curiosity, both frames the same size? Are both crank arm lengths the same? I have a trek Madone compact 12/25 and a Trek 1500, triple 12/25. The Madone is 58cm with 175 crank arms, the 1500 is 56 with 170 crank arms, in the same gear/inch combinations, the 1500 (heavier bike) feels like it climbs easier. Not easy mind you. If you would look in the dictionary for sucks at climbing, you will find my picture.

Commodus

Seems to me I remember reading somewhere that bigger sprockets are slightly more mechanically efficient than smaller ones.

RoboCheme

I, too, believe that gear inches are gear inches, but you won't have the same gear inch combinations with your 39 as you will with your 34. So, perhaps the 39 offers a gear inch length that suits you better for that particular climb.

Having said all that, I think that it's more of the fit or placebo effect. My Scott CR1 feels faster than my RS, therefore I go faster.

UCIMBZ

I don't know about that. It seems like whatever the put under Cavendish it magically becomes fast. Go figure.

redlude97

Seeing as 39x25 is the same gear as 34x23, just do the same hills with the compact in that gear and see if your times are similar. Then that will tell you if it is the crank or the bike.