Agreed except I'm not a fan of pits. I tell the Gore-Tex people that a pit or a vent is punting and an outright admission that not enough breathing is going on. Besides, open these up and the water/wind that we were so interested in keeping out comes in. I can always open my jacket, take it off, or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I use them on my ski shells/bibs all the time. But I still say it's punting.

One other thing none of the manufacturers talk when discussing breathability is under what conditions it works. You can sweat enough to overwhelm any system (including just bare skin), and when that happens is a function of the individual, the climate inside the shell, and the climate outside the shell. The basic schtick is that the warmer and wetter it is outside, the less evaporation you're going to get. At a certain point, you're going to be drenched in sweat.

Despite being a tester for years, it's only this year that I've actually recommended wearing the stuff when cycling in *any* conditions. My previous attitude was that all the products were too heavy and that you were better off with a strategy based on staying warm when wet than even trying to stay dry. However, I do think the Active Shell stuff is usable. I get to test stuff that's not available commercially, some of which I like even better. So I think it's actually possible to use this stuff if expectations are reasonable. As you mention, anything can be overwhelmed.

Where Gore-Tex, eVent, and the like work great is if it's you're working hard inside the shell and it's cold and dry outside the shell -- i.e. when you're skiing. This creates vapor pressure and the difference in comfort is absolutely massive. When I'm in the snow and temps are in single digits or teens all day (or multiple days as would be experienced on a snow camping trip), I typically have a single thin wicking layer and Pro Shell jacket (note that not all Pro Shell jackets are anywhere near equal). If I'm going to be sitting around camp for awhile, I throw on a fleece, but you still need very little.

Bottom line is that the use everyone imagines they'll use a breathable layer for is rain, but the use case it's best suited for is snow and/or when it's really cold out.

My honest opinion is that I consider the stuff essential equipment in the mountains. I used to think it was one of those ideas that people like but just doesn't work for cycling (like Illuminite). But now there is some usable gear that I can recommend to commuters and road cyclists. I wouldn't go so far as to call it essential, but if you have the cash, there is decent stuff to be had.

Not a Gore-Tex product tester, just a guy who does hard group rides year-round in the PNW. Hence I don't ride when it's icy, only down to about 35 and raining or snowing lightly. But I have ridden in a lot of cold rain. I've never found a waterproof/breathable jacket that works for me in a cold rain. I get overheated. Testing has found that cyclists perform best at 50° and dry. So any heating slows me down, and you can't get rid of it in a jacket because there's no evaporative cooling near the skin. So the only thing that works for me is a microfiber-type windproof jacket. It's so true that if it won't fit easily in a jersey pocket, it's not going to work.

The Performance jacket I've been using isn't made anymore. It's just a shell with no pockets, no collar lining, no nothing, just a zipper in the front. It's looking really trashed, though, so I bought a Pearl Izumi Elite Barrier Convertible Jacket. It's suboptimal because it has stupid pockets. Don't need pockets. Current Performance offerings all have pockets AFAIK.

Discussing a winter jacket alone isn't appropriate, really. You want a winter clothing system, everything you're going to take with you on a winter century, for instance. So if you have a jacket, you'll also need a vest, though the reverse is not necessarily true. A buddy of mine never uses a jacket, no matter what it's doing. The PI Convertible promised to eliminate the vest and it's sort of OK. One can go from jacket to vest, but going the opposite way is impractical because it takes too long unless you do it at a lunch stop or something. No way to do it on the bike, even stopping for a minute. So it didn't work out as well as I had hoped.

If you're wearing a windproof shell, you've got on stuff under it. Craft T-shirt, either long or short sleeve depending on temp is good, then a jersey of some some sort, depending on temp. A fav of mine is long sleeve Craft, arm warmers, short sleeve jersey and jacket or vest. That has a wide temperature variation and quick to alter it. Long sleeve Craft and long sleeve heavy poly jersey and jacket goes down to 35° and raining for me.

Still looking for a perfect winter jacket, though.

I'm in Chicago. I'm often riding in sub 30 degree weather and this jacket is one of my most frequently used garments. I agree with you, above 40 I just layer cheap polypro.

How much better is Active Shell than Pro Shell? And how much better is the stuff we can't play with yet? How long until it's no the shelves?

A friend is looking for a good winter coat, and I considered giving him a deal on mine, then using the money to get an Active Shell parka. I probably won't, it's just an idle thought, but I wonder what your opinion is.

Can you comment on some of the differences between Pro Shell jackets? The fabric is the same, right? You're talking ("unequal") about stuff like if they've got too many pockets, or are just poorly designed in general? (How does my Arc'teryx Beta AR compare against the lot of them?)

What type of skiing are you talking about? I used to do cross country, years ago, and I think I'm going to take skiing up this winter - ultimately I want to be doing telemark stuff in the backcountry. (Two weeks ago I went hiking, and met a guy I did some rock climbing with, hiking up the mountain with skis on his pack.) But I tend to sweat too much in my Pro Shell on the way up the mountain - partly because of the backpack. It's useful when the wind howls, in a downpour, and at camp when I'm being more sedentary.

I almost never wear Goretex on the bike these days. It will have to be raining hard for several hours for that to happen.

OP in Alabama , may be chillier than on a Caribbean Island,

but will likely still benefit from Layering . shell jacket, rain resistant + layers of Insulation
under it to add and subtract as the temperature changes..

opposite side of the continent, I'm probably riding in my showers pass jacket
tweedy Portland in the summer on the NW Coast, those look nice

but in the winter here the Neon Green Carhartt parka comes out..

Im so Post race bike..now..

For the Squalls and deluge I get out the Cycle Rain Cape.

Not sheltered behind the Olympic Natl park and mountain like Puget sound.

Randonnee skiing, I wear my bike stuff including windshell and/or vest, substituting a different midlayer for the bike jersey. I carry a UL WP breathable jacket and full-zip rain pants in case it starts raining. If it's snowing, I often wear the rain pants uphill. Legs don't sweat like the torso does, so I can keep my legs from getting wet with sweat by tuning my uphill speed. Be sure to wear a ski helmet - they make them with close-able vents. Head injuries happen. Ask me how I know.

Well, if we were to look at non-cycling specific gear, anyone have opinions on North Face or Columbia-branded jackets and base layers?

start with a smart wool undershirt from REI and you can't go wrong!

Well, I have a thermal base layer from Pearl Izumi, as well as one from REI. Both work incredibly well, though neither are made of wool. (I hear it's almost impossible to get wool to stink, so I'd love to give one a go.)

Depends what you are shopping for. Both of those are heavily marketed brands that appeal to those who wear outdoor clothing as fashion. I think there are better values available, especially for those looking for serious outdoor gear.

But then again, most people aren't climbing in the Himalayas. And lucky us, there is amazing variety in brands making useful clothing and equipement compared to 40 years ago when the average camper was getting stuff from a Sears catalog.

True...I was looking at them because I could get discounts on them, but yeah, I also like the look. Call me silly.

Really, then go for it. It's a bit like buying a Trek, just because they are somewhat ubiquitous doesn't mean that they don't make some decent stuff.

Well, that's the thing. I try not o fall force keying hype, and here I am, falling for marketing hype.

I've only had a couple of North Face things, but they've fallen apart too quickly. They market their stuff better than they put it together.

I agree. It's sad because North Face twenty-five years ago was the best stuff you could buy. IMO, Patagonia is still worth the (somewhat ridiculous) money.

re: non-cycling specific gear

might not offer the coverage in back due to posture while cycling, but if it does - go for it. base layers you can get anywhere - and don't have to be cycling specific, but there are some sweet cycling skull caps or helmet liners, and I have a sweet headband that doesn't interfere with my helmet.

also generic rain pants and snow pants work quite well. for jackets though I think you will have to hunt around alot for the right fit for cycling.

"Better" is not quite the right word. For *most* snowsports, you're going to want Pro Shell. It performs well and it is far more durable. For lift and back country action Pro Shell is generally better. Also go Pro Shell for anything where conditions are harsh or you carry a heavy (>25 lbs) pack. But for XC or tele action in the spring or on sunny days when it's warmer (especially when you're doing a lot of climbing), Active Shell a is better way to go. If all that's on your back is a couple liters of water and some gear, you'd probably like the Active Shell on the days you're burning up in your Beta AR.

Active Shell is considerably lighter and the backer layer is integrated directly into the Gore-Tex membrane. It is light enough for cycling, though it isn't as light as my lightest windbreaker. All the same the Active Shell jacket I have is good enough to use as your only jacket. Due to NDA considerations, I can't really provide details about the stuff I test. But it's is that they're always trying to develop better products. I will say I'm working with one that I'd really like for my own and it would be my only cycling jacket.
This depends on how many jackets you have. If your Beta AR is your only jacket, hold onto that. I think the Beta AR is an excellent all rounder and if I could have only one for all conditions, that would be near the top of my list. It's light and features are well conceived and executed. You can take it in the back country or out on a spring day. It's not really the best at any one thing, but it does so many things well that it's a great jacket.

And yes, the difference between the jackets is the fabrics, features, and design. There are plenty of Pro Shell jackets that will seem insanely heavy compared to your Beta AR, but they're usually designed for some specialized purpose. For example, Arcteryx makes many Pro Shell jackets. I think they make great stuff, but you'd barbecue in an Alpha or Theta SV simply because they're not optimized for your use.


I like backcountry best and I love climbing. As is the case with cycling, I totally suck, but I don't let that stop me. Just bought a new tele setup that I'm aching to try out. I'm kind of interested to see what I wind up doing now that I've moved to Portland and it's easier to get to lifts and I'll be hanging out with different people.

For what type of riding? I've never tried any that wouldn't be way too heavy. This includes the vast majority of stuff that's marketed at cyclists.

Better to get wet from rain than to be sopping wet from sweat.

Can I ask why the pack weight matters? Is it about the jacket's durability, with all that weight pressing against it? Or is it that with more than 25 lbs in your pack, it'll be big enough and pressed firmly enough against your back that you'll be sweating regardless? (I think my pack generally weighs twice that.)

From what I can tell, all of the above. The stuff is noticeably less resilient than the Pro Shell and I wouldn't want to take Active Shell snowboarding or in conditions where I felt hard crashes were likely -- I'm pretty sure I'd tear it up. I've totally destroyed a lightweight jacket or two via abuse, but my Pro Shell gear takes anything I throw at it.

With a 50 lb pack, I'd stick with your Beta AR. If you're burning up and it's not quite warm enough to take off entirely, pack a lightweight windbreaker like you'd use for cycling. I've had pretty good experience with that.