What exactly is BB30?
01-28-13 | 07:44 AM
#51
cycle-dog spot
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01-28-13 | 07:49 AM
#52
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'Wear' by definition doesn't haven't to be a friction part or related to parts moving. But in this case you are mistaken 'again'...reference my response to you above. You illustrate the problem with a lay person passing judgement on design...you shouldn't. Your anecdotal observations are off base. A part like a plastic bushing can wear if static aka not moving discernibly. The mechanism is creep. Google it. The plastic bushings do wear...in fact this is design intent and the reason plastic is used...a buffer to mitigate wear to expensive carbon BB shell. Plastic bushings are serviceable and replacable for low cost. Over time plastic bushings creep which set them up for eventual failure. Even without classical creep aka permanent deformation and bushings flexing in the elastic zone of non permanent tensile and compression...bearings can loose seating and cock and plastic bushings can squirm in the hard carbon BB sheel which causes abrasive 'wear' and well documented noise or creaking. The book on PF30 plastic bushings is...they fail. This is partly by design. The issue is...time to failure. A treatise can be written on why this occurs. PF30 BB's are problematic and why the proliferation of captured bearing assemblies with address these design short comings. You will see these products becoming mainstream and sold by OE bike makers over time. PF30 can be made to work...underlying question is...for how long. Specialized now spec's epoxy to cement PF30 plastic bushings in place to improve durability. Bearings can still squirm within the bushing unlike aftermarket designs with captured bearings which are not only better sealed but much more durable and less prone to make noise.
****, sadly.
01-28-13 | 07:55 AM
#54
Voice of the Industry
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Ahahaha.... Looks like there has been a lot of religious debate on this. I didn't bother to read it all but got most of the just.
BB30 has been touted initially with lots of "advantages"
It is in fact easier to machine. When you thread you have to first bore and then thread. In bb30 you just bore. It reduces the process and tooling and overall expense, but that isn't really the reason to do it. There are easier ways to reduce the cost in frame manufacturing without resorting to removing a threading step - one of the simplest steps and oldest machining processes.
Bb30 has become the bane of most mechanic's existence. It's easy to assemble and service with the right tools, but almost all of its incarnations have resulted in early bearing failure from poor sealing, or creaking between the pocket and bearing.
There are a lot of ways that have been developed to "deal" with these issues, but they overlook the fact that the threaded setup just works better. Sorry.
Pressing out bearings and replacing does wear on the bearing pocket. Pocket tolerances for bearings are actually. Fairly critical. The wear contributes to chronic pocket/bearing creaking. This is not the case with threaded connections.
BB30 has been touted initially with lots of "advantages"
It is in fact easier to machine. When you thread you have to first bore and then thread. In bb30 you just bore. It reduces the process and tooling and overall expense, but that isn't really the reason to do it. There are easier ways to reduce the cost in frame manufacturing without resorting to removing a threading step - one of the simplest steps and oldest machining processes.
Bb30 has become the bane of most mechanic's existence. It's easy to assemble and service with the right tools, but almost all of its incarnations have resulted in early bearing failure from poor sealing, or creaking between the pocket and bearing.
There are a lot of ways that have been developed to "deal" with these issues, but they overlook the fact that the threaded setup just works better. Sorry.
Pressing out bearings and replacing does wear on the bearing pocket. Pocket tolerances for bearings are actually. Fairly critical. The wear contributes to chronic pocket/bearing creaking. This is not the case with threaded connections.
As I stated in previous threads, I believe that PF30 will supercede BB30 for some of the reasons you mentioned. But not PF30 in its present form. Praxis has come forward with a very solid aftermarket BB to be used with PF30. It maintains PF30 Delrin bushings in fact. But major difference. It is a collet sleeve that expands radially when threaded in place. This uniform expansion works nicely with a plastic bushing and hard carbon shell. But there's more. The reason why it is so effective is...it is a solid sleeve that is stabilized by both both sides of the BB..unlike current PF30 where bearings are independent...the true achilles heel of both BB/PF30 in contrast to threaded BB.
I foresee that BB30 will go away over time...in part because it offers very little economic advantage as you state compared to threaded BB and PF30 if done properly can be made rock solid and maintain the advantage of larger diameter crank spindle.
01-28-13 | 07:59 AM
#55
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Why would I reference anything you have ever written? It's almost funny to watch you spew on about 'lay persons' but at this point it has become more pathologically concerning. What you described above that I bolded for you is NOT a description that would apply to a PF30 BB. The bearings are not captured in plastic. Have you ever actually SEEN a PF30 BB? Do you even bother to look it up before you weave these tales? Most science fiction writers try to base their stories on some facts.
01-28-13 | 08:03 AM
#56
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01-28-13 | 08:08 AM
#57
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From: Wherever u see a fred, I am there.
I've had that and other bikes from that era. It's an okay bike, just like many others of that time. But the benefits of newer bikes are apparent. Take that Klein and sprint all out, especially on a steep hill and then do the same on a 14 lb CF. The difference is amazing.
01-28-13 | 08:47 AM
#58
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True. Above is pretty obvious to engineers that look at the design of BB30 and contrast it to an external bearing threaded BB.
As I stated in previous threads, I believe that PF30 will supercede BB30 for some of the reasons you mentioned. But not PF30 in its present form. Praxis has come forward with a very solid aftermarket BB to be used with PF30. It maintains PF30 Delrin bushings in fact. But major difference. It is a collet sleeve that expands radially when threaded in place. This uniform expansion works nicely with a plastic bushing and hard carbon shell. But there's more. The reason why it is so effective is...it is a solid sleeve that is stabilized by both both sides of the BB..unlike current PF30 where bearings are independent...the true achilles heel of both BB/PF30 in contrast to threaded BB.
I foresee that BB30 will go away over time...in part because it offers very little economic advantage as you state compared to threaded BB and PF30 if done properly can be made rock solid and maintain the advantage of larger diameter crank spindle.
As I stated in previous threads, I believe that PF30 will supercede BB30 for some of the reasons you mentioned. But not PF30 in its present form. Praxis has come forward with a very solid aftermarket BB to be used with PF30. It maintains PF30 Delrin bushings in fact. But major difference. It is a collet sleeve that expands radially when threaded in place. This uniform expansion works nicely with a plastic bushing and hard carbon shell. But there's more. The reason why it is so effective is...it is a solid sleeve that is stabilized by both both sides of the BB..unlike current PF30 where bearings are independent...the true achilles heel of both BB/PF30 in contrast to threaded BB.
I foresee that BB30 will go away over time...in part because it offers very little economic advantage as you state compared to threaded BB and PF30 if done properly can be made rock solid and maintain the advantage of larger diameter crank spindle.
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01-28-13 | 08:52 AM
#59
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From: Sugar Land, TX
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix SL8
Praxis does have a great conversion bb for pf30s but its only for shimano hollowtech cranks(24mm spindles). They also have their new M35 bb system which works in bb30/pf30 but its proprietary to their 35mm spindle cranks or shimano cranks with the use of adapters.
01-28-13 | 09:01 AM
#60
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A discussion with a Praxis rep on another forum divulged that Praxis is working on additional BB's based upon their excellent collet design which is quite clever and non invasive because it expands radially versus relying upon a press which as Psimet stated will degrade BB30 bores...or PF30 hard carbon shells over time. What Specialized has done this year is develop spacer/adapters that adapt Campy cranks to their BB's...which work much better than Campy's press in cups which work pretty awful. I believe you will see from Praxis moving forward a BB design that will adapt Campy cranks to BB/PF30. This will be very popular I believe. Campy cranks have a 25mm OD spindle and hence only a very slight change to adapt them using their BB.
01-28-13 | 09:04 AM
#61
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For what, disagreement? That's what people come to BF for, to argue and disagree.
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01-28-13 | 09:05 AM
#62
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As I've said before...
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
01-28-13 | 09:06 AM
#63
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+1 - the PF30 setups I have worked with so far leave a lot to be desired, but I would be very interested in an expanding delrin collet style system. I am also a big fan of Enduro's angular contact cartridge bearing setup (retrofit all of my 38w cross system wheels with these for cross) in their bb30 system. It is a serviceable setup and angular contact. Capture the outer race in delrin and make it pf30.......you might have something
1. It is through sleeve which connects both sides of the BB which is the most stable.
2. It expands radially to BB bores, not inducing wear.
3. Bearings are captured and won't move or shift and have great sealing.
01-28-13 | 09:09 AM
#64
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As I've said before...
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
Last edited by Campag4life; 01-28-13 at 09:16 AM.
01-28-13 | 09:17 AM
#65
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The point is...BB/PF30 are here and on a major percentage of high end frames. BB design will continue to evolve. We are seeing now have seen in in the last 10 years since beleageured square taper cartridge BB's were supplanted by external bearing cranks which many to believe are much better...I sure do. BB/PF30 have undergone considerable 'growing pains' but necessity is the mother of invention and you are and will be seeing better solutions moving forward.
01-28-13 | 09:20 AM
#66
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From: Sugar Land, TX
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A discussion with a Praxis rep on another forum divulged that Praxis is working on additional BB's based upon their excellent collet design which is quite clever and non invasive because it expands radially versus relying upon a press which as Psimet stated will degrade BB30 bores...or PF30 hard carbon shells over time. What Specialized has done this year is develop spacer/adapters that adapt Campy cranks to their BB's...which work much better than Campy's press in cups which work pretty awful. I believe you will see from Praxis moving forward a BB design that will adapt Campy cranks to BB/PF30. This will be very popular I believe. Campy cranks have a 25mm OD spindle and hence only a very slight change to adapt them using their BB.
Either way, still a fan of their chainrings as I'm still waiting for Praxis to release their chainrings for Campy cranksets.
*Knocks on wood* the campy pf30 cups I installed on my Merak have been problem free so far.
01-28-13 | 09:45 AM
#67
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BB30 is a pain. I was running SRAM Red BB30 cranks on my CAAD 10 and had creaking issues. I replaced the bearings 2x every 500 miles. I then replaced the cranks with Hollowgrams in hopes to cure the creaking. So far so good. I'm over the 500 mile mark and still no creaking. We'll see in another 500 miles though...
If shimano hasn't bothered to make a BB30 crankset that just tells you a lot
If shimano hasn't bothered to make a BB30 crankset that just tells you a lot
01-28-13 | 10:08 AM
#68
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I really doubt the 4 lb. difference would make much difference. Maybe mentally- it would *feel* like you're doing better (Not that that is to be discounted- I believe perception/psychology has a lot to do with riding)- but we're talking apples and oranges here- as my comparison was restricted to bikes in the same original price-range as the Klein- and as far as I know, you can't get a 14 lb. CF bike for ~$1700, eh?
01-28-13 | 10:21 AM
#70
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Which would be great... if and when it does happen. The reason why I say that is because they've designed and released that new conversion bb, but only for shimano cranks. Their M35 bb does look promising, but only fits their line of 35mm cranks or shimano's with adapters. Considering the number of bb30 cranksets out in the market, I was surprised not seeing one designed specifically for bb30 cranks, but only for shimano?
Either way, still a fan of their chainrings as I'm still waiting for Praxis to release their chainrings for Campy cranksets.
*Knocks on wood* the campy pf30 cups I installed on my Merak have been problem free so far.
Either way, still a fan of their chainrings as I'm still waiting for Praxis to release their chainrings for Campy cranksets.
*Knocks on wood* the campy pf30 cups I installed on my Merak have been problem free so far.
There are two current solutions which are much more robust to what you run and have effectively 'rescued' Campy for PF30 bike owners.
Last edited by Campag4life; 01-28-13 at 10:28 AM.
01-28-13 | 12:36 PM
#71
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01-28-13 | 12:45 PM
#72
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As I've said before...
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
An Ultegra threaded BB costs $21. Using a $13 dollar tool from Performance, an unskilled mechanic (such as myself) can install one in about ten minutes without having to worry about proper alignment or Loctite. It's very rare for a properly installed threaded BB to creak.
BB30 is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Threaded is just a better design.
01-28-13 | 01:07 PM
#73
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The Giant bikes that you saw most probably have BB86 bearings in them. If I remember it right, Giant, Scott and Shimano worked together in coming up with the BB86 standard.
01-28-13 | 01:14 PM
#74
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Behind all the arguments for the superiority of threaded BBs there is a fundamentally flawed assumption. The assumption is this: That bicycle manufacturers are in the business of manufacturing technically superior, relatively low-maintenance bicycles.
The fact is this: Bicycle manufacturers COULD manufacture technically superior, relatively low-maintenance bicycles, but that's not their purpose. Their primary purpose is to return profits to their investors. In that regard, their purpose is optimized only when they (1) sell you a bicycle at the highest possible price, and (2) manufacture that bicycle at the lowest possible cost. Threaded BBs and framesets cost more to manufacture than BB30 BBs and framesets. For that reason, in the eyes of the bicycle manufacturers, BB30 is the superior solution -- it fits with the lowest-possible-cost ethos.
Ultimately, that's the only factor that matters to the manufacturers. And shareholders wouldn't have it any other way.
The fact is this: Bicycle manufacturers COULD manufacture technically superior, relatively low-maintenance bicycles, but that's not their purpose. Their primary purpose is to return profits to their investors. In that regard, their purpose is optimized only when they (1) sell you a bicycle at the highest possible price, and (2) manufacture that bicycle at the lowest possible cost. Threaded BBs and framesets cost more to manufacture than BB30 BBs and framesets. For that reason, in the eyes of the bicycle manufacturers, BB30 is the superior solution -- it fits with the lowest-possible-cost ethos.
Ultimately, that's the only factor that matters to the manufacturers. And shareholders wouldn't have it any other way.
01-28-13 | 01:41 PM
#75
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QBP has a very nice comparison of all the current press-fit bottom bracket standards
https://www.qbp.com/diagrams/tech_con..._brackets.html
...
https://www.qbp.com/diagrams/tech_con..._brackets.html
...
Also, I searched and found the YouTube video I spoke of earlier at post #71. The video is made by the same company that made that web page quoted above. Very educational video. I sincerely suggest to the OP to watch it: