So I was using an Elite Qubo trainer that I picked up about a month ago and according to my latest 8 min FTP test, my FTP was calculated at 153. This I thought was low because a few months before I had been riding side by side another rider w/ powertap similar weight up a mountain road said he was putting out 220 wts. I assumed I was close and it was pretty contfortable pace. Either way, I accepted the fact that as long as I was using consistent #'s, my training should be precise.
On Monday night, the trainer shift thingy broke in pieces and I decided to take it back to Performance. They just so happened to have 20% off and double points on most trainers. Picked up a cycleops fluid 2 for 27 bucks more. passed on the double poins since I had already gotten points on the first purchase.
Anyway, I got home, assembled it and went on my first TR road ride. Set it to the fluid two and right off the back, saw my #'s jump to the point that I had to reset it fist from 153 to 185, and then raise it to 130%. Was using my hr to kind of gauge efforts. I think this may put my FTP closer to the 200 wt mark. Just don't feel like doing an 8 minute test since I"m on a 12 wk training plan, but I may need to to dial it in effectively.
Anyone else see any crazy differences from one trainer to the other ?
I just need to save up for a power tap. No plans to race, but I just really love data and training with a purpose

i wouldn't think an 8 minute test would hurt your plans too much, and the benefits of getting your # correctish will deliver results for the rest of the build phase...seems wise, no?

Some trainers just aren't as consistent (resistance at a given speed over a range of temps) as others. The 8 minute test is no fun (I just did it two days ago) but I'd rather do it again than monkey around with manually adjusting your FTP based on your perceived effort. If you're worried about 'throwing away' a session on your current plan just to re-test, consider that you may very well be throwing away multiple sessions until you get back to being dialed-in properly.

the misnomer '8-minute' test.

thing is brutal.

I think I've known the answer all along. Will work in my FTP tomorrow, before the weekend.

One other thing I like is the fluid 2 flywheel, forward momentum helps keep my power steady compared to previous trainer w/ no flywheel.

If you are going to train with power, get a powermeter.
Trainers are inaccurate and not sure how you would relate your trainer workouts once you get onto the road.

I agree. You are better off training with a HR monitor if you aren't going to get a powermeter. Inaccurate data is worse than no data.

The accuracy of the TR numbers is very questionable. My Cycleops Fluid2 FTP came in 40 watts higher than my powertap FTP which is a huge difference. However, the precision on most trainers is very good. For my Fluid2, the precision is really, really good. Like reproducible to the 0.1mph if going by rear wheel speed for a given power.

However, I strongly disagree that this means you can't use TR meaningfully. It just means that you can't use your virtualpower for outdoor racing with a powermeter, nor should can you compare it to others on the interweb or off those charts that tell you that with a FTP of 350 you should be a semipro racer.

In fact, I have noticed NO difference in training with TR after getting the powermeter save for readjusting the FTP to a lower number. Thresholds are similarly painful, anaerobics are like death, and TSS scores are nearly identical since they depend on the FTP. In fact, I'd say that for the vast majority of folks who aren't going to rely on power data for racing and whom don't NEED power data for outdoor rides, you can completely skip the powermeter and just go with virtualpower on trainerroad.

Just don't see that 340FTP on virtualpower and think "wow I should go pro!" unless you really are killing all the local Cat1s in your area.


In response to all those posting above saying about how training with inaccurate virtualpower indoors will harm your outdoor riding - total bogus. The virtualpower will force you to ride harder, are more consistently on a trainer, and will IMPROVE your trainer quality workouts significantly. It's 10x better than just riding randomly on a trainer or even thinking you'll do like 2 x 20' @ threshold but not having the visual feedback of actually doing it. I did almost exclusively trainer work from Nov-Jan and on my first outdoor 55 mile ride with 6000ft of climbing with perhaps only one prior outside ride during that time of a measly 20miles flat, I had no problems with it. Indoor training with virtualpower on TR really works as long as your virtualpower was derived from the FTP tests on TR and not some made up imaginary number.

And having trained primarily with HR last year before going TR virtualpower late last year, in my experience, virtualpower >>> HR, mainly because I found that the fitter I got, the lower my HR would get despite increases in power. This becomes pretty evident if you export data to Golden Cheetah and look at your TRIMP score (weighted HR composite) - mine was decreasing despite going longer and with higher power in my workouts. I would have thought I was getting worse based on that HR number!

I've only done 20 minute tests. 8 minutes seems like shooting from the red tee

Well said. The naysayers won't have it though. I don't have TR, but have been using the same principles of converting speed to power using my trainer's power curve so that my trainer workouts are based on power rather than HR or RPE. Up until now I have just programmed my Garmin with speed range workouts that have been calculated from power targets using a simple spreadsheet, but I've just bought a Suntoo Movestick and have been experimenting with Golden Cheetah v3 train mode linked to Sufferfest videos. It's definitely not as slick as TR, but has some of its features and it's free! Another new player on the scene for those with ANT+ receivers and sensors is Spivi - free beta for the first 1000 users - www.spivi.com

Just using speed on your indoor trainer and using that as a metric is also perfectly good for indoor training progress tracking. The only catch with that is that it's a bit harder to get effort range estimates, like 80% of FTP, since the speed to power curve isn't the same for all trainers. (Trainerroad estimates the curves for trainers, particularly Fluid2 and KK.)

But I still look at my interval speed as well as average speed (hell yes it's a legit number - this is from someone who also now has a powermeter as well and uses it), especially when comparing my trainer workouts from this year to ones last year and before that before I had the nice TrainerRoad or powermeter metrics. It's still very useful in comparing workouts, be it overall average effort for steady state rides, or for peak interval speed.

The powermeter metrics are good stuff, but just because they're better doesn't mean the trainer metrics are useless. Not by a long stretch. If anything, with virtualpower, the importance of that power number for indoor training purposes is very low. Again, I'd completely skip the powermeter unless you really want to use power for training/racing outdoors, since you can get workouts of just as good quality using virtualpower (derived from speed).

I'll have to check out Spivi; right now I actually quit Trainerroad and migrated to Peripedal since I liked the custom workout creator better (the free also helped!). Peripedal is very good as well and is still in free beta.

There's lots of data that shows that the precision of some of the more popular trainers is very good. As long as you're taking your own steps to further ensure precision (tire pressure, how many turns you tighten the roller), you'll arrive at meaningful numbers to train with. As long as there's consistency, I couldn't give two ****s whether or not the FTP numbers that I'm seeing on TR are identical to what I'd see with a PTap.

exactly, WhyFi and hhnngg1 are dead on correct here. consistency is far more important/useful to the overwhelming majority of riders than what the PM bigots will ever admit to. but that's ok, it's their money, if they feel it benefits them then more power to 'em, just get off the high horse and quit talking down to folks that don't have 2k for a PM setup but still would like some training information to help them along. there is always going to be a 'best' solution, a 'best bang for the buck' solution, and the 'that's close enough for me' solution. advocates of the 'best' solution have a tendency to berate the other choices for whatever reason despite them having legitimate value and worth in the marketplace.

Its not just full effort for 8 mins. Its actually a warm up and 2, 8 minute efforts with rest in between. The calculation averages out the two efforts and takes an average ( I believe its .90) It is very close to anything you would get on a 20 min test or even an hr test without having to to go through the whole effort

From my reading on this forum it's consistency that these so-called PM bigots preach when discussing power measuring options. Case in point, this thread on PMs for the Recreational Rider https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...eational-Rider

Obviously accuracy is also something that is discussed but most people will accept any power calculating solution that is out by X% but is consistently out. Perhaps you could show me where these PM bigots are focused on something other than consistency.

...

The 8min test is the exact test that Chris Carmichael recommends in his "Time-Crunched Cyclist" books which are based around power training.

I've done many 8 min tests, and a few 20 mins tests, and have actually never done a 60min full out test although I have a local climb that's pretty close to near-all out over an hour so I got a pretty good sense of each. I found that at least for me, my 8 min test gave me higher FTP but was still reasonably close to my 20min effort, which seems very close to what I'd expect based on my 60min hillclimb.

While I still think the 60min all-out is the gold standard, and anything shorter involves more error, I'm starting to like the 8min test again mainly because it's so easy to perform repeatedly. It's hard enough to go all-out for 2 x 20, and I absolutely dread doing an all-out 60 (which is why I never do it) but I'm ok with busting out the 2 x 8' protocol (with warmups etc) repeatedly since I know I won't wimp out in the final minutes. And honestly, I'd rather have a good test effort that I can do repeatedly, than a 'gold standard' test that I frankly hate doing and can barely even do once during the season.

As well, as long as your estimated FTP is bringing the hurt on your workouts, there's no reason to really fret about it. You'll KNOW if you're going suprathreshold - you'll be dying after 20 minutes of that, regardless of what the screen numbers say.

My initial impressions of Spivi are that it has potential but is not yet suitable for serious training. The show stopper for me is that it needs constant internet connectivity, which I don't have in my garage where the trainer is setup. Thanks for the heads-up on Peripedal: it looks awesome. Really nice, simple user interface and great features. I can see me using this instead of Golden Cheetah if they add profiles for my trainer. I've already sent the developer the equations for my trainer's power curve to the developer. Golden Cheetah's main man added them within a day or two so here's hoping!

Hey - while you're at it, how the heck do you get Golden Cheetah to work like Trainerroad/peripedal? I tried to program a 'course' in GC for the training mode, but there was no way to build a workout on GC that I could find. (It's super easy with peripedal.)

For a start, make sure you're using the latest development build https://goldencheetah.stand2surf.net/

From the train window in the tools menu you can download a whole load of workouts from ErgDB and there's a workout creator to make your own. Almost all the Sufferfests are there. You can also add a video window to the display and rearrange the screen to get a layout similar to peripedal. In the Options menu, you can setup your device to use in train mode. It's all a little clunky, but it does work - I need to re-insert my Suunto ANT receiver for new workouts, but the Garmin sensor works better by all accounts. You can export the workout as a tcx and upload it to Strava etc. or just use the analysis tools in GC (which I'm still getting my head around!).

Done. New FTP w/ the fluid 2 puts me at 240. Painful.....

That's great news - wouldn't want you not suffering enough on your workouts.

The thing is, the discussion of PowerCal is irrelevant to trainer-based power. My KKRM is dead consistent - an interval at the end of the workout is just as hard (though much more painful) than at the beginning, and workouts feel exactly like they did when I had access to a CompuTrainer. Of course, I don't use my 251w FTP for anything but tracking progress and establishing the next workout, though I'm quite confident that when I boosted it from 234w to 251w, I really did go up 7%, whatever the actual numbers were. What would I get out of spending hundreds or a thousand dollars on a powermeter to find out my "true" FTP? Going out and riding is going out and riding, and it's easier with more power.

I actually do intend on getting a PM this season, but for triathlon pacing. Need to make sure the legs have enough left to chase down bike studs.

PowerCal is a fancy HRM. It's no better than just an HRM.

I'm with your and have not really ruled out the new stages crankarm powermetr. I'm not too convinced yet that it won't mee my personal training needs. $700.00

Also, does anyone know what the new features TR is working on their 2.0 release ?