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this has been a great thread!! Thanks Bianchi10!!
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 15394642)
I may be sorry I started this line of response, but here goes. First OP, I totally respect your riding prowess. From what you say, you ride at a level I never have even dreamed of. My best day ever was 50 miles at 20.5/mile on a completely flat road. A few years later that is just a fond memory. But this goes way beyond riding...
I just don't understand how you can think of paying a small fortune for goods that cost so little to produce. Do the ENVE people not totally insult you? Do they not make you angry? Their rims altogether probably cost under $50/pair to make, and you would pay WHAT for them? Same for Chris King, who has for years hidden his profit margins behind a smoke screen of techno-bull and tough back-to-basics talk. He is the grand denyer, saying nothing new can be any good, because he chooses to charge way too much for the old-fashioned. I feel the same way about Sapim ($3.00 for a little strip of stainless steel, FGS), but since there is no functionally equivalent alternative at a cheaper price, there is no choice there. I read what you said about always wanting to look like a pro in any kind of sport you pursued. Fair enough, I can understand that, but you are forgetting one thing. The pros get this stuff for free. They don't ride it because it is best or prettiest, but because it is given to them. You're the patsy that pays for all that. When it comes down to it, what irks me the most is that you are considering forsaking the best riding solution for the flashiest. Man that is hard to accept. After having the great good luck to fall into this relationship with Jude and get this free-for-nothing demo test, you are ignoring the results for a little sparkle. And your good friends on the "41" are egging you on. "Just buy it man. You're gonna have the sweetest ride on the road. So what if your kids can't go to college?" (Hey, please forgive that. It was a cheap shot but a little too hard to pass up. I think you know what I DO mean.) If it were me, I would learn to build wheels. I would invest some money in the necessary equipment (truing stand, tensiometer, aero spoke gripper, etc.). I would go to BHS and get their highly functional, very inexpensive wheel components, and I would build the pair of wheels that are really going to improve my riding and the enjoyment of it. Probably their deep, 23 mm wide aluminum rims for under $60 apiece. And then I would deposit the extra $1,500 in my kids' college fund. Oh, and I would be LOL every time I aired up my tires and took a good look at my wheels that I had built, every time I dropped my friends on a ride, and certainly every time one of them told me what he paid for his new wheels. I hope I haven't offended you. You did ask to be dissuaded from the ENVEs. I know I took it a step or two further, but I am just being honest with you according to my beliefs. Parting shot: let the other guys be the patsies; you be the smart one. Robert So...I believe the exercise that the OP engaged in here is informative and entertaining but to drop an extra grand on a wheel set that may spell the difference of .1 sec on a closed course time trial is pretty crazy...for the amateur...but his money and his kids and not our place to judge. Maybe he is expecting an inheritance. ;) |
Originally Posted by WhyFi
(Post 15396358)
Tell me the one again about how plastics are all the same, thus legos = ENVE rim. Or maybe tell me again about the costs in "the region in which the parts are being manufactured" - does Utah import 12-year-old Chinese girls with delicate fingers to make rims in sweatshops? You're a fool.
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I just want to add what an awesome shop Jude runs at Sugar.
My personal experience is nothing but win. She has built lots of wheels for our dudes. Everyone has been super happy. I went in for a repair on a bent race wheel. Came back a month later for a full new set. I told her: strong, light, aero.... In that order. Ended up with H Plus Son rims, DT 240 hubs with DT Revolution spokes, 24 / 28. Under 1500 grams. Absolutely bombproof and stealth. Zero flash. I am super happy. Jude listens to what the individual customer needs and make magic happen. Unequalled. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15396440)
Actually, I believe he is sensible and right. WhyFi...you shouldn't engage in name calling. That ain't cool. Its OK to disagree. That's what the forum is about...sharing opinions and many times no we don't agree. But name calling as tempting as it is :) shouldn't be done.
Now let's leave this noise behind and stop derailing the thread. |
Originally Posted by WhyFi
(Post 15396455)
I have no problem with his opinion, I have a problem with his 'facts' - anyone that asserts that ENVE has only $25 worth of design, engineering, material and labor invested in each rim is, in my opinion (better?), a fool.
Now let's leave this noise behind and stop derailing the thread. I agree to let the thread get back on track... |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15396548)
WhyFi...not much better really. Its OK to have a problem with his facts. But unless you can prove definitively to the contrary, then its your opinion versus his. No reason for name calling. The fact is, likely neither including me know what ENVE's business model is...in terms of R&D, fixed and variable costs are. So its just speculation anyway.
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15396548)
I believe his point is...build your own wheels and do your own R&D...especially if you are on a budget. Not bad advice really.
Now stop. |
Originally Posted by WhyFi
(Post 15396594)
Minimum wage in Utah is $7.25. Do you think that it takes less than 4 hours of hands on time to produce a finished product? The labor costs alone make his $25/rim figure an absurd impossibility.
No, that's not bad advice, and it's what I'd do, but what I'm objecting to his sanctimonious BS "Have you no self-respect? Do the ENVE people not totally insult you? Do they not make you angry?" That's a greater insult than being called a fool. Now stop. Just a suggestion...instead of calling him a fool which he clearly isn't...he is a smart guy....why not say.... rpen...aren't you being a bit santimonious? We don't know ENVE's cost structure. I find it hard to believe it is as you say. Anyway...trying to make peace here is all. |
Yes let's please stop with the insults and name-calling.
Bianchi I think I just read that you have not tried the HED C2's yet, correct? How is it that you're leaning towards them, then? Something that Jude told you? As for wheel building equipment, I could probably just go put in some volunteer time at the local bike co-op and they would teach me some wheel building skills, and I would also have use of their equipment in the shop. So that's another option if you have a co-op in your area, such that the costs of the components, plus your time, would be all there is. :) |
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
(Post 15396793)
Yes let's please stop with the insults and name-calling.
Bianchi I think I just read that you have not tried the HED C2's yet, correct? How is it that you're leaning towards them, then? Something that Jude told you? As for wheel building equipment, I could probably just go put in some volunteer time at the local bike co-op and they would teach me some wheel building skills, and I would also have use of their equipment in the shop. So that's another option if you have a co-op in your area, such that the costs of the components, plus your time, would be all there is. :) So I guess finding a plan b should be on my mind also. |
You won't need a plan B. :thumb:
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 15394642)
I just don't understand how you can think of paying a small fortune for goods that cost so little to produce. Do the ENVE people not totally insult you? Do they not make you angry? Their rims altogether probably cost under $50/pair to make, and you would pay WHAT for them?
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15396744)
I see your point about the santimony. But in the broader context, I agree with a lot repen wrote.
Just a suggestion...instead of calling him a fool which he clearly isn't...he is a smart guy....why not say.... rpen...aren't you being a bit santimonious? We don't know ENVE's cost structure. I find it hard to believe it is as you say. Anyway...trying to make peace here is all. We KNOW that ENVE rims are designed, engineered and manufactured in the US. While we don't have access to their account books, we know definitively that it costs more than 25 friggin' dollars to bring a rim to market. You want to throw your support behind some that bases their judgmental, holier-than-thou attitude on this patently false premise, knock yourself out. Meanwhile, if he has the temerity to tell someone that they're a patsy and that they have no self-respect because of a purchase consideration, I'll be happy to rub his nose in his steaming pile of an argument. |
Originally Posted by WhyFi
(Post 15397142)
: picard :
We KNOW that ENVE rims are designed, engineered and manufactured in the US. While we don't have access to their account books, we know definitively that it costs more than 25 friggin' dollars to bring a rim to market. You want to throw your support behind some that bases their judgmental, holier-than-thou attitude on this patently false premise, knock yourself out. Meanwhile, if he has the temerity to tell someone that they're a patsy and that they have no self-respect because of a purchase consideration, I'll be happy to rub his nose in his steaming pile of an argument. Question...you ride ENVE wheels?...and if not, why not? |
Another thread beaten to death by people agreeing that what they are doing is beating it to death. Only on the 41...
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Originally Posted by JoelS
(Post 15396854)
You won't need a plan B. :thumb:
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15396744)
I see your point about the santimony. But in the broader context, I agree with a lot repen wrote.
Just a suggestion...instead of calling him a fool which he clearly isn't...he is a smart guy....why not say.... rpen...aren't you being a bit santimonious? We don't know ENVE's cost structure. I find it hard to believe it is as you say. Anyway...trying to make peace here is all. Robert |
Test ride #2 on Enve's
38 miles this morning. Totally different weather conditions which was good because it gave me a chance to see how they would perform in less than beautiful weather. Rained a little bit, fairly gusty winds and cold (was 36 when I left, probably 42 by the time i got back home).
was blown around a bit today with the wind. Big gusts of wind would really knock me off my line. Downhills could also feel it bit. Flats:still felt very smooth and able to maintain speeds like I had a small motor under me. Good stuff for sure, that is till a medium size wind came gusting through. Braking: still pretty good but not as good as it was on Friday when it was completely dry and 65 degrees. I didn't do much descending today so I cant speak about how they held up in strong braking. On the flats I had to make small adjustments, but nothing that I found to be serious or dangerous. It was a consistent rain the last half of my ride. Climbing:I did more climbing today than i did on friday. 3,176ft climbing today. I wouldn't say they climbed bad at all, but I feel that it wouldn't be the first choice for A LOT of climbing. still better than the H plus son IMO. I dont know why but i just didn't like the H plus son while I was climbing with them. Sprinting:what can I say, I love them for sprinting. Nothing bad to say at all here. Comfort: more of a harsh ride than the h plus son and velocity which had the 23/23 combo. just to remind, the enve is a 21mm rim running a 23 conti 4000s. Tire pressure set 80/85. Aethetics: Again, Hot. The pure aesthetics of this wheel is making it hard to stay on track with what I can realistically spend as well as what I need. I would love these wheels, but after thinking about the money I have, i will be going with the C2 wheel build. http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...317_122504.jpg |
Originally Posted by DaveWC
(Post 15397380)
Another thread beaten to death by people agreeing that what they are doing is beating it to death. Only on the 41...
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
(Post 15397420)
Campag4Life, I appreciate your reasoned responses to my somewhat over-the-top postings. Ah, hindsight is everything. I took the liberty of talking to bianchi10 the way I did without thinking in any way of insulting him. Why not? Because that is how I talk to myself when considering such a purchase. Perhaps not a good premise, but why should he be offended, if considering my own purchases in that same light doesn't offend me? Oh, well, live and learn.
Robert Cheers. |
Bianchi, thanks for the post on the different wheels. Hope you found the answer to your questions.
And as for all the bickering on other post, the guy was just talking wheels, everybody who didn't agree, didn't have to read it. Thanks again Bianchi, I enjoyed the read. |
I didn't read all this, but just wondering if you've come to any conclusion yet. Maybe a summary post regarding each set of wheels and your final thoughts - when you get there that is. I have no idea how long this is supposed to go on. Thanks for the info though.
In particular, one of the early sets you rode had CK hubs and H Plus Son rims. I was thinking of getting some carbon wheels but starting to think that's not the best idea. A really nice set of alloy might be the best option. Would like to know what makes an enve a better climbing rim than the H Plus Son. Stiffer? I'd likely do a 24/28 build. I do have a set with C2 rims and CK hubs with 32 spokes on the rear. Can't say I've ever noticed any flex in those but then I don't have much experience with other wheels. My other bike has kinlin 300 rims with 24/28 and I do notice the occasional brake rub when climbing. What is the C2 build you are going to pursue and what beside price was the deciding factor(s)? Sorry if you addressed this already (post #?). It's a lot to skim through. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 15397655)
<snip>....a family man strapped for funds should seek value and not foofoo...<snip>
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Originally Posted by JoelS
(Post 15397881)
And we should never make assumptions that someone fits this profile unless they actually spell it out. And even then, if they want to go into debt to buy something, it's none of our damned business.
As to going into debt to buy stuff we like...isn't it the American way? ;) |
fyi, OP, aero trumps weight at grades approaching 6% for elite amateurs, and 8% for pros. hope that confuses you some more, lol.
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