I think you misread this. I believe that speed was for a 5 mile flat stretch.

Oops, my apologies. CX's would be much stiffer than his other options, but I don't know if it would be as stiff as a straight gauge spoke, although I have no experience with them so I don't really know.
I don't think I did.

[QUOTE=Staggerwing;15400904]Won't add much, but:

FWIW, working with pre-preg carbon fiber material, which is what the Enve rims are made from, is nothing like working injection molded plastics. Most of what the general populace considers "plastics" are thermo-plastics. The are solid at room temperature, apply heat, they soften, and once cool, they harden again. Pre-preg, is short for pre-impregnated, as in a fabric, woven or not, of carbon, or any number of other fiber materials, loaded with a resin, in this case epoxy, which is a thermoset. Flexible, at room, or lower temperatures, to be cured at elevated temperature. Once cured, they do not soften again, although they can be damaged by heat. The stuff is terribly expensive, and somewhat of a pain to work with. You don't just slap a couple of pieces in a mold an call it a day. I would not be at all surprised if Enve has 60-90 minutes of labor in each rim./QUOTE]

I think you were directing the above comments mostly at me, so please believe me when I say that I am not pushing the $25 per US-built carbon rim any longer. Having said that I would still contend that a crew of well trained technicians operating in an assembly line arrangement with precision machine-cut pre-preg segments ought to be able to dress a mold and make it ready for the oven with much less than 60-90 minutes of labor per wheel. Sure, for getting the kinks out of a new design the process could be significantly slower, and must have been when carbon composite molding was in its infancy. But for an established model, I am just saying (my unschooled opinion only) I would really be surprised if it took that much human time-effort. I suppose I am just that confident in the productivity capabilities of modern industry. So often folks who don't do a certain kind of work imagine it to be much harder and slower than it has really become. Maybe some day we will really know.

+1 on everything you said about appropriate wheel choice.

I stand corrected. That's a fine ride.

Didn't say that at all. He is trying to optimize a set number of variables, and from what I can gather, stiffness, and durability are pretty high up the list. He isn't looking at a deeper rims nor thicker spokes. You can increase lateral stiffness by going with a radial build on the front, and on one side in back, which effectively increases bracing angle. But there is no free lunch.

Rather than relying on my engineering background, lets looks at the pre-built marketplace as to what two respected manufacturers sell and support. They need to make money, and selling something that breaks will not work. Boyd, on the 30mm deep Rouleur recommends the 20/24 set for riders up to 180, and the 24/28 set for those over. Note, he uses the beefier Sapim Race spokes, and even with that spoke, the weight difference per set is less than 50 grams. He goes on to say, if you are on the border, or like the feel of a stiffer wheel, step up to the higher spoke count. Likewise, Hed, with their Ardennes series, suggests a 190 limit for the 18/24 set, while they made a 20/28 "Stallion" build for those in the 190-225 range. They do use the lighter weight Sapim CX-Ray spoke. Perhaps their rim, although shallower than that on the Boyd, is stiffer, or their rim is able to take a higher spoke tension.

There's another current thread on wheel stiffness (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...heel-stiffness) that has some very interesting discussion of lateral stiffness and radial spoking... might want to check it out before you recite this as dogma.

Should have qualified that as marginal, as in almost noise, increase, and then, only if you go head in/elbow out.

The referenced slowtwitch article is reasonably well done.

Actually, I'm not sure I can. Weight is similar on both so both seem to spin up about the same - at least I can't really tell any difference but I've never ridden them on the same bike so other factors at play. Both ride really nice. Generally not harsh even on chipseal. The caad is, obviously, alloy and the synapse carbon. The "better" wheels (the C2/CK) are on the synapse. What I don't like about the kinlin rims is how the wind blows them around. The C2 rims are much better in the wind.

As for 32 spokes that was what came out of the discussions. I said I wanted good, durable wheels for longer riding and thought 32 would be better. I was told 28 would be okay but 32 would be smoother. I also went with different spokes. Sapim race on drive and laser on non-drive. I guess I equated smoother with more comfortable. Honestly, I don't really understand how spoke numbers/tension impact ride. I just told the builder what I was looking for and went from there. I will say I've never had any brake rub with the 32 spoke wheels but the 28 spoke kinlins do from time to time. Not sure it's a spoke issue alone but may be part of it.

I'll say it again: you will not actually FEEL the difference between two different wheel sets on chip seal. Not if they're both properly tensioned. You will, however, HEAR a difference as you go over the bumps, and the more percussive, hollow sounds from a deep section aero rim compared to the muffled sounds of a 32 spoke 3x box section will determine your perception to a large degree.

Second subject, I don't know why people are so keen on Sapim spokes. I've built a lot of wheels, and once ordered some Sapim spokes. VERY crude workmanship compared to DT. They had what looked like mandrel scars where the butted section began, and they were very inconsistent in where the diameter drawdown/butting was located from spoke to spoke. I was highly unimpressed, and sent them back. From a workmanship perspective, I hold DT and Wheelsmith to be equal (I love Wheelsmith DB15s; a bit heavier than Revolution, a bit lighter than Competition), but I will never order Sapim again.

Ridiculous.

Now that I'm headed with the C2's and Chris king hubs. I'm trying to decide if I want to go safe route with black hubs and keep it a black and white bike OR add a little bit of color which several others have mentioned that a little color looked good. So I'm open minded to a splash of color but i dont want it to be a focus when looking at the bike. I want it to still flow.

So I have decided its going to be black or gold. This is a picture that featured the H plus son with pink CK hubs. Its not perfect but it helps give me a visual of what each will look like.

This obviously isn't everyone's concern, but right now its a focus of mine to decide which to go with. I am basing this strictly off aesthetics so I am sure I will get mixed reviews.

Keep it black and white or add a splash of color??

Gold CK R45 Hubs
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...rgsxr/gold.jpg


Black CK R45 Hubs
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...vrgsxr/BLK.jpg

I like the gold hubs. Subtle, but enough color to break the black/white SSix.

easy, gold. killer whales would wear chains if they made em that big.

Primov, I was totally going to send these picts to you specifically to see what you thought. thanks for the vote!

James1:17, hahahaha thanks

Gold, bianchi, gold.

Black or silver.

the gold looks tacky. i say go for it. not enough tacky looking bikes out there.

Gold doesn't contrast it conflicts. Black, silver or maybe the pewter color. I know you didn't like it but the pink looked kind of cool.

EDIT: I have the same wheels with blue hubs. Bike had some blue on it so thought it would look good. The black/white bike seems to call for black hubs. Sorry, no good pick of the bike w/wheels but here are the wheels.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z...0/IMAG0139.jpg

I saw the pewter in person and it has a slight purple tint to it. didn't like it.

More. A lot more.

Typically one mold can produce 4~8 rims A DAY. Those rims are raw and usually involves the labour of TWO PEOPLE.

Then there is sanding, filling, decals (baking), paint and baking or UV drying. More people and a lot more man hours.

That's why I laugh at the preposterous claims of how much carbon parts ACTUALLY cost and how the man is ripping us off.

Good to hear from someone that has actual industry connections. Back in my co-op days, the product we were making was only about 50% complete after the molding cycle. There was a lot of flash that had to be hand trimmed, overall sanding, extensive testing, since it was a critical flight part, and then final finishing. Back then, all of the pre-preg pieces were hand cut from patterns. There is an advantage today, in that the pre-preg bits can be CNC cut. They still are hand laid-up, on the mandrel, or in the mold.

Even with CNC machining, tool steel molds are very expensive. Back in the 80's, we were paying in the $50k range for two piece molds, with thermal lines and thermocouple wells. Not something the average guy is going to pull off in a garage.

As I said early in the thread the c2 with cx ray and r45 hubs is an excellent choice.

jude is a great builder, and her wheels hold up.

The Black hubs are much better on that bike.

Cant decide. Torn between them both.