go for the gold. it looks really tacky/out of place. why not spend the money for ugly hubs? its also cool that it would limit other color schemes on bike (ie bartape).

the black hubs just look like you didnt want a tacky bike. the class, seamless integration of colors on your bike will be too pleasurable.

Not thinking of Mango? they're awesome with silver spokes. My original order was mango when the bike was almost all black with some white, then when I ended up with a frame that had red I changed to the red hubs.

I would also continue to suggest the 11spd version so that you don't have to sell in the future. they are the same price, just use the spacer

I was fully content to let this whole thing go mainly because I really can't prove my point. Sure $25 to produce a rim in the US was probably way low. Ok, so I exaggerated. You haven't heard me pushing on this any more. But you guys can't let it go. So if you can hold off on the laughing for a few minutes, you might want to read what it says on the ENVE web site at www.enve.com/technology.aspx .

The proprietor basically says that ENVE rims come out of the mold fully finished with no clean up, hole drilling or decorating of any kind needed. So I am in no position to assert how quickly the mold layup may occur, but I can authoritatively claim that extra labor beyond that isn't required.

To be perfectly honest when I made my initial claim I truly thought that ENVE was making their rims in Asia as they do for most of their other products. Knowing that Gigantex, a very highly regarded carbon rim maker in Taiwan makes rims that sell at retail in the US for $200 each, I quickly calculated that if the producer and trading company and retailer each took even conservative 50% margins, the rims must cost $25 each to produce. Any larger margins as are becoming so common these days, and the production cost of a rim must necessarily shrink to what, $10 or less. (I am not saying it is the case, just pointing out a reductive reasoning result.) I didn't count on ENVE manufacturing in the US. So I am probably not right, but not likely so wrong either. US labor expenses necessarily affect the cost, and without knowing the true labor hours involved, in my chastened state I can't hazard a guess.

But according to ENVE's own information, you are not exactly on target either. I sure wish there were some way we could really know the truth. Okay, you can start laughing again now.

I like a hub with some color on it, but IMHO they look better if they coordinate with 1 or 2 other small splashes of the same color elsewhere on the bike. Something like a headset cap or perhaps pedals with some color. I'm not sure if I would want colored hubs otherwise.

For instance my bike is also mostly black and white, but there are small red accents here and there, and I would definitely go for red hubs with a custom wheel build, unless I thought they might fade too badly over time.

POLISHED!!!

Gotta have the bling. Go polished hubs and rims with silver or black spokes, or even gold spokes!!!

BTW...I have a new set of wheels on the way here from Universal Cycles with H Plus Son Formation face 42 rims in GOLD with black hubs/spokes/nipples going on a gold Soma Double Cross. Don't fear color.

I say go for the Gold baby! But you must also add a gold KMC chain and absolutely no other gold bits beyond that. And I'm someone who typically frowns on goldness.

Then again... you could be boring and safe and go with black or silver. It will still look good, but it will have no pop. The gold will bring out haters and you can't be phased by that.

Off topic but: H+Son Formation Faces don't have braking surfaces. Is your Double Cross a DC i.e. disc brakes?

yes it is the gold disc only frameset. gonna use Force crank, FD and brifters with X9 RD. BB7 road discs. Gonna be a nice commuter to keep rough miles off my Roubaix.

kind of like this without the ghey blue bartape
http://somafab.blogspot.com/2012/12/...ross-disc.html

Ok good, just checking. Coulda got into some trouble.

i'm not laughing, i see your point. if we assume ENVE ad copy is not flat out lying. and i think not.

@rpenmanparker

Still incorrect.

The rims still come out of the mold come RAW. The holes are molded in (which is unique) but they don't have decals or paint. This takes man hours. A lot of man hours and some very expensive equipment.

They are not the only ones molding this way. I work with a vendor in Asia that can do the same thing (without the molded holes).

Margins of 50% are over the moon. Think 20% off the top that doesn't include ANY fixed costs or R&D or marketing.

I've never seen a Gigantex rim sold consumer direct for any amount, never mind two bills. I'm willing to be proven wrong on this but show me the link that isn't from AliBaba.

The entire bike industry runs on margins that are laughable compared to most other industries. No one is trying to rip you off

OP, I vote Mango. You could use blue bar tape and it would look pretty flash.

I guess it depends on what is being sold. Some margins are quite high. If anybody had ever bought a pair of Zipps through an employee purchase...you'll know what I'm talking about.

Specialized also has special employee purchase programs. Most people would literally crap their pants at the prices.

Those are subsidized by the brand. The idea is that they will recoup the cash as shop employees preferentially sell the goods they were bro dealt.

Oh yeah...all my stuff is bro dealt.

You like that, non? Bro dealt...I slay me.

OP, I still vote MANGO.

BS.

If you read, it says.."ENVE machines all tooling in-house to extremely tight tolerances which means that each rim is as flat and round as possible right out of the mold with every rim being measured before it goes into inventory." It DOES say, that they nipple seats, and brake track texture are molded in right from the start, which is a neat trick. It also says that they make all of their own tooling, which is another suggestion that they know what they are doing.

As far as being finished right out of the mold...do you notice the image on the left, about halfway down that linked page, of the rim on a set of steel rollers. THAT is a rim fresh out of the mold. Notice all of the translucent webbing on the inside and outside of the rim. It is epoxy bleed out which much be carefully broken off, and the sharp edges need to be knock down by hand sanding. No way to completely eliminate this, as a little even bleed out indicates the part is properly molded. Since they mold the spoke hole in, they are going to have to do a little deflashing at every hole too. Also need to do final QC, which I'm guessing is going to be more than a simply visual inspection. Then decals.

^^^

+1 to all of the above. I hadn't looked at the link.

We should do lunch.


EDIT: I just checked the link. That's a lot of flashing. They aren't shy with the resin! I'd be interested to know what kinds of bladders they use and at what pressures.

I hear you, and you make good points. I can't tell you how they are doing deflashing; perhaps they have a machine for that. I know this isn't blow molding, but in that process deflashing is completely automated. The more you point out they know what they are doing, the more that suggests to me they are doing things very efficiently.

Like I said, my original estimate was likely way low. I just don't believe this is an artisanal process. I feel it must be modern and automated. Folks like us are saying what they have experienced in the past. Who can tell us what is happening now?

i can say from personal experience working in a Celenese injection molding factory in Hilliard Ohio in about 1971-2, where my job was pulling molded parts off the machines, deflashing them, and throwing them in a box, that i did literally hundreds of them during an eight hour shift. each took a few seconds. the machines were about 20 feet long and looked like (and were as loud) as steam engines. we used a the same kind of knife that horseshoers use to trim hoofs. they came in left and right handed versions. terribly boring job. i hated it.

I want you to watch the following 6 minute youtube video regarding the manufacture of a Giant carbon frame, and tell me automated or artisanal. To be certain, they squeeze as much automation as possible into the process, but when you have human hands laying each piece of pre-preg on the mandral, it is very much skilled craftwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBZB3W7RG0M

Note, this is arguably the world's largest bicycle manufacturer. I'm super impressed they weave, and saturate their own cloth. FWIW, that pre-preg fabric is like working with a fiber reinforced fruit roll up, it is tacky, somewhat stiff, and will not cure at room temp.

I'm not sure what you mean by "consumer direct", but Bike Hub Store has Gigantex rims for mail order for under $200 each. I hope you didn't think I meant that price for a pair. Go on the web site and see for yourself: http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/124.htm

Actually, 50% margin IS laughable by modern standards. Joseph A. Bank Clothiers has a list price margin of 85% or more (not a guess, that is a fact). Their continual sales bring the margins down to about 40-50%. What the average is I can't say. Why do I mention a clothing retailer in a discussion about bicycle marketing. Simple; if you tilt your head a little and squint just a bit, you can see the same trends and marketing plans in both. Market consolidation has allowed rapidly increasing prices in recent years which has been accompanied by shifts to Asian manufacturing and nearly constant high discount "sales". Performance Bike Shop and Jos. A. Bank Clothiers were cut from the same bolt of cloth, uh er, prepreg. When I see bikes in a Performance Shop selling for 40% or more off, and I look around and see the overall success of the business, I know that discounted price is still very far above the dealer's cost. These aren't fire sales; the ultra-high prices and constant sales are the new marketing plan. By the way it is the same in furniture. Almost all made now in Asia. Prices never went down, in fact their up. But the price off sales got bigger, and the number of years to pay without interest got longer. And even so, the profits are still much higher than when furniture was built in North Carolina.

Your historical perspective says I am wrong about all this, and I respect your opinion, but I think you are the one who (today) is wrong. I can't speak for Mom and Pop LBSs. I don't know how they price their goods. Just don't tell me this industry is running on a shoestring in 2013. That situation is long past. Materials and devices with cache like carbon, titanium, STI, 11 speed, electronic shifting, etc. have provided the platform upon which high margins seemingly can be justified. Low cost labor and outsourced manufacturing have allowed significantly improved sales margins within traditional price points and fantastic margins at the new price points that the bling supports. When you go into a high powered bike shop, just open your eyes, the evidence is everywhere to be seen. $15,000 Pinarello's! Nuff said!

You and I have argued about this very point before, when I complained in a thread about how little weight reduction you got for your money these days when so many light components were available to be hung on a frame. You said then, as now, that I don't know all the costs, the insurance, the R&D, and so on. I'm sure what you say has basis, but the constant price escalation running in step with cost reduction due to outsourcing add up to big profits. I don't exactly begrudge them (well, not all the time), but I don't deny them either. No rose colored glasses here.

Respectfully,
Robert

I am very interested in this, but the video that your link leads to was only 1:18 long and cut off right at the lay up stage. Did you see something more detailed than I did? You said 6 minutes.

Robert,

The margins I quote are based on my day to day working experience. They are spot on.

The move to Asian manufacturing happened years ago and is the only reason prices are as low as they are now.

BHS is blowing out rims because they can't sell them. This is a discounter situation and does not reflect market prices. I KNOW what they paid for those rims as I used to sell them in the OE.

Honestly, unless you stick you face in a business there is no way to understand all the fixed or hidden costs and what the final PROFIT is. This is true for any industry.

As to what Performance CLEARS OUT DEAD STOCK at trust me it is not "way above" dealer cost. They are simply trying to recoup their capitol.

We should start a new thread about this.

and call it...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-upWGy5k4OL...dead+horse.jpg

And then all this crap should get pulled out of this thread, which was great until "someone" came in and started wrecking the party.