Spoke options for DT 350:

Front:
-Straightpull: 24
-Traditional: 28,32

Rear:
-Straightpull:28
-Traiditional: 28,32

I think there's a lurkfest going on with this thread. I think lot of people are just trying to stay out of the way so the thread doesn't get too big.

Regarding , somebody really needs to get on the ball and start selling EPO branded hubs, rims, wheels, clothing, etc. The window of opportunity is wide open right now, and I think someone is really missing out. I'd get some in a second just to keep me laughing on the road.:thumb:

truth. keep posting OP.

I am certainly lurking and reading. In fact I just built up and am now riding a wheel set like your first demo set featuring CK R45 hubs, HED Belgium rims and CxRay spokes 24/24 radial front and 2x/2x rear. I won't add any of my personal observations so I not to skew your feelings.

Erin Glover from Portland State/Sizzle Pie cycling won a few races (RR/TTT/Crit) this weekend on your Pink test wheels. Wonder if she got them from Sugar Wheel Works too. You guys should ride together. It would be cute :P

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=304056

Just need some EPO coffee
http://25.media.tumblr.com/21bece2ae...edguo1_500.jpg

DT straight pull hubs would be a nice setup if she has any to compare the difference. I think you would enjoy them as it might reduce the "slop" you are feeling.

This thread has inspired me to lower my tire pressure, if anything haha.

Ironically, today I had a co-worker ask me if I had ever thought about selling my wheels (I helped get him into cycling). I told him that I was currently thinking about it so that I could upgrade my wheels to a new set. He asked how much and I said.....$350? he said, ok let me know when you are ready.

That means I could tell jude that I could raise my price limit and possibly get into something even gooder!

Most of what anyone thinks they perceive in these kinds of tests, whether it be on frames or wheels, is a psychological construct of acoustic feedback. That's pretty much it.

If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.

That's pretty much it.

Neat. I am so glad you said that. I have never felt a difference between wheels as far as stiffness is concerned. If anything I feel differences is overall bike comfort, but nothing that feels like it is specifically in the wheels. No slop or looseness or any such thing. Of couse I don't push my wheels like some do, but I just can't imagine what some folks are feeling. Any unsteadiness that I may feel seems to be more in the frame, not the wheels. I ride light stuff: 20 mm deep rims, 20/24 Revolution spokes, 1250-1270g. But no flex that I can FEEL. Go figure.

Pretty much incorrect.

Any objective evidence supporting that assertion?

It would be fun to paint five frames black with no decals or other identifiers and build up with identical parts and wheels. Then see how rider/reviewer opinion squares with build intent and instrumental evidence.

Robert

Of course there's no objective evidence. We're talking about perception. Not everyone is as sensitive to changes. Some won't notice small changes, others will notice them. Perception is a funny thing.

FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.

Someone did in a while back:

http://www.habcycles.com/m7.html

[QUOTE=JoelS;15379137]Of course there's no objective evidence. We're talking about perception. Not everyone is as sensitive to changes. Some won't notice small changes, others will notice them. Perception is a funny thing.

FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.[/QUOTE

Not you. Big Fred.

I think the more general question of perceptions would be a great thread on its own.

Any objective evidence supporting the assertion he was stating was incorrect?

If we're talking about 'perceptions', no objective evidence is required. The fact that one rider percieves a difference is evidence enough, regardless of whether another rider percieves the same or not.

If we are talking about actual physical differences. The real world difference(time climbing a given grade) for wheels of differing weights is easily calculated, as has been demonstrated on this forum and many others time and again. The same is true for the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels.


But, if we're talking about rider perception. I would disagree with Banzai's assumption that it is simply a construct of acoustic feedback. That may or may not be the case with some hollow carbon rims that have very unique acoustic signatures. But, in the case of aluminum clinchers, isolated, from the road by pneumatic tires there is certainly more than acoustics influencing rider perception of ride qualities. Certainly one rim dragging on brakes brakes as a consequence of lateral flex is not a construct of acoustic feedback. Nor, would cornering traits of that rim compared to others be a construct of acoustic feedback. The decrased gyroscopic effect of lighter rims and nipples and how that influences how the bike feels as one stands and sways on climbs or attempts to accelerate is not going to be a constuct of accoustic feedback.

But, since we're talking about perceptions and Banzai was the one to forward the hypothesis. Perhaps he should provide the objective evidence that proves his assertion.

Funny, I know what stiffness feels like in terms of comfort but not in terms of power transmission. I have no idea what is meant in reviews by power on the pedals going directly to the wheels or some such stuff. I imagine the less stiff frame feeling like a pogo stick. But in all my 30 years of road bike cycling I have never felt such a thing. Not on 531 steel or Trek screwed and glued aluminum or Giant Advanced SL carbon, or Everti titanium or finally not on Ritchey Breakaway steel. I just think it is mostly (not all) hype. The differences are mostly too small to feel power-wise. Comfort-wise I don't dispute at all. That even I can feel.

Robert

Was I wrong thinking acoustic was a humorous reference to all the chatter you hear about the best, the stiffest, the most durable, etc.? I didn't think acoustic meant how the wheels sound. **********?

I don't want to disrail this thread, because, for the most part I am enjoying listening to Bianchi's experience with this process.

With regards to power transfer and wheel stiffness. You may not have experienced the difference. I feel I have. I've ridden different wheels on the same frame and have experienced brake pad rub with some, but, not others. That is the physical demonstration of a feeling that is apparent even when the rub doesn't exist. I've also had the experience of riding the same wheels on more than one frame and experienced chainstay rub on one frame but not the other. This can be somewhat less straight forward, because of differing clearances between the two frames. But, generally that would be an indication of realative lateral frame stiffness at the bottom bracket. Where the aforementioned brake rub would suggest lateral wheel movement. If you've never experienced any of this, consider yourself lucky and carry on.

It's Wednesday here. Bianchi should be due another swap tomorrow or the next day. I wonder what's next?

Too small to feel power wise? In terms of comfort I don't really care, but power transmission is definitely key for me, and very noticeable. My CAAD10 is amazingly stiff, but I've had brake rub issues with my 28h rear wheel (admittedly, I keep my calipers very tight, no longer the case though). On the other hand, my track bike, which is steel has MAJOR frame flex issues. The wheels are 32h, 42mm deep alloy, high flange hub, bladed spokes, so they're as stiff as wheels get.

During major sprints my rear tire will leave a skid mark on the drive side chain stay.

That definitely isn't too small to notice, and definitely not hype. Stiffness is an issue for a lot of us.


Edit: bigfred and I literally just said the same thing.

All the talk of stiffness in here reminds me of an article I read on slowtwitch yesterday discussing the different aspects of "stiffness" and how differences in spoke stiffness manifest as compared to rim stiffness.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debun...ness_3449.html