Very very nice

THINKING OUT LOUD.....random thoughts
 

random thoughts........


so it appears as if this will be my last test set since she said she doesn't have anymore demo's built up. The enve wheels are more of a "ok I tried a deeper carbon wheel" since I have never ridden a set. They will probably set me up for disaster and leave me unsatisfied with anything else I try. isn't there some kind of saying that goes like, "if you cant afford it, dont test ride it cuz you WILL want them." I doubt i will be able to afford any kind of enve wheels unless I am able to find a great deal on a gently used set online.

I have to say that I have been so greatful for this experience and her help, but a little disappointed that i wont have more options. I was under the assumption that I would have 4 or 5 sets to test. I have learned A LOT and several preconceived thoughts were torn down and I feel that I am now on a better path.

So we talked today as I was picking up my enve's. The test of the velocity A23 was a surprise to her, because I wasn't supposed to like them. She figured it would be lacking in a lot of departments for me. Turns out that I did like them and the only thing that made me not like them more than the H plus son was they were a disappointment while descending. With the feedback I gave her, she really thinks I would be completely satisfied with a set of HED C2 rims, either CK r45's or DT swiss 240's, CX Ray sapim spokes. Very well balanced rim, 23mm width advantages, very durable and because of the rim shape, they are more aero.

I can honestly say that trying to get the lightest wheel is no longer a priority for me at the moment, BUT I am still aware of the weight. Through our conversation it sounds like this C2 set up will come in around 1520g. Is that heavy?? no. Is that a light wheel though?? No. In fact, its 40g lighter than my current boyds. As I just said, I'm not looking for an 1100g wheelset, but i was hoping that I would be getting into a lighter set than i had.

At the risk of sounding like I'm headed back to my old roots, Anyone have any ideas or suggestions on rims that would be comparably light but still as durable? OR can you testify that this C2 set up sounds to be a great option? Not to contradict myself, but One of the important lessons I found along the way was that a wheel that may tip the scales a little heavier may perform and feel better because of the way that wheel is balanced, tensioned and quality of parts. I loved how comfortable the ride was on both the A23's and H plus sons, so I have no doubt the C2 would feel very similar on the flats. But I wonder how its going to feel while climbing? Climbing and descending were two subjects that separated the 2 wheels. the H plus son descended nicely, but did not climb as well. the A23, just the opposite in climbing nicer but descended below par. If I understood Jude correctly, the C2 has a lower weight point which makes for a better descending wheel. The A23 has a very high weight point (I could be using the wrong terms here) which is why it felt insecure while descending.


Any thoughts to put me at ease? I feel that I can trust Jude and that I am leaning more toward following her suggestion, but I'm looking at $1000 for this build. That is A LOT of cheese for me to drop on some wheels and i dont want to be disappointed.

so what are my facts about the C2 wheel option:
-it will be a stiffer wheel
-I like the hubs better, regardless if I go CK or DT
-I like the 23mm wheel combined with a 23mm tire for comfort, cornering and descending
-has a better shape which will be more aero than both the H plus son, A23 and most likely the boyd even thought it was a 30mm.
-heavier than my boyds. but again, I'm trying to keep my mind focused that its not about scale weight, but where the weight is being placed.

BTW....I was WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off on my guess for how much the H plus sons weighed!!!! I mean WAY off :p She said they were around 1580g maybe lighter. the A23's came in around 1540g BUT was a 32/32 spoke pattern.



This has been a very long day and I'm super tired but I know I would just lay in bed thinking about this if I didn't get my thoughts out, so Im sorry if half or none of this makes sense.

I cant wait to ride these enve wheels, but i hope for my budget sake I end up hating them.

i cant wait to ride them in 5 years...




hopefully in a discount bin.

My daily and favorite all around wheelset right now is Chris King r45 hubs, Sapinm CxRays laced to HED C2 rims. We went with a 24 spoke build front and rear, radial front 2x rear.
At this time I alos own a set of HED Jet6's (C2 rim) and Mavic Kstrium ES. It is a rare day that I use anything other than my CK/C2 build. I find they are almost fast as the Jets but they feel much lighter and spirited. Handling feels a little slower when compared to my Mavics and I attribute that to the wider C2 rim. As for the R45 freehub noise mine are very quiet in fact I wish they were a little louder. Speaking for mine at least noise is a non issue. Durability has been a non issue as well as all of the spokes are holding equal tension after more than a few rides on steep climbs and very poorly maintained roads.

bianchi,

I think you're struggling with what you think is important to you in a wheelset and what is really important to you in a wheelset. I'd be surprised if what you are feeling between the wheels isn't due more to the differences in spoking than the differences in the specific rim between the HED, the A23, and the H+Son.

The C2 is a terrific rim to build up and is of impeccable quality -- the rim joint is machined to perfection and the anodizing is first rate. I wouldn't have any qualms about it if I were you. I'd try to home in on how many spokes and how do you like them laced.

thanks for the advice svt and gary. My mind was on overdrive last night and I was over thinking everything. Good to hear about the wheels. I think part of my concern is that I experienced the H plus son and the A23. I know what I liked about each set. Now I'm about to drop $1k on the C2's and I have never even held the wheel in my hand, seen one built up in person (I have google, I know what they look like) and my biggest concern is that i haven't ridden it. She did say that she always wants to have a plan "B", in case i go out on the first ride and just dont care for them, she can swap the rim out for that plan "B". So at least I have that assurance, I just need to come up with a plan B wheel that I would have in mind.

Quite honestly, I think the best set for you would be a set of the new Boyd Vitesse in clyde build (23mm wide x 28mm deep rim and 24f/28r).

Think about it.

as much as I enjoyed my Boyd wheels, I have experienced what a custom wheelset feels like and I am chosing to move on. In fact I have sold my Boyds already (I still have them in hand though) to a co worker. I got a really good amount for them. Used them well and hard for 2 years and now I will apply that money towards my new set. I will never say that Boyd wheels are "sub par" or anything a like because I think they are great wheels and Coach Boyd stands by his product. As he mentioned in this thread already, there are several other options out there. I'm looking for a custom set at this point. thanks though.

The C2 built to the CK hubs is about as premium as you can get for an all around wheelset you can always ride. You will love them for sure.

Something I would also consider are the Shimano C24 wheels. The reason why I am suggesting them is that they fill your criteria for a light rim for one. The combination of the super thin alloy rim with a carbon overlay produces one of the lightest rims out there at about 380 grams per rim. Low rotational weight is what counts when you're climbing or trying to get up to speed. The wheels come in two flavors, DuraAce and RS80, which is essentially the same wheel as DuraAce but with Ultegra hubs. Shimano hubs are well known for their quality so no worries there. They are built with Sapim like bladed spokes that are made from steel giving the wheels a very comfortable ride. I've ridden the DuraAce version for few thousand miles and could not be happier. Shoot me a PM if interested in the RS80s. I have an extra pair ;) I have a friend riding a pair of C2 rims to Super Record hubs. Has nothing but good things to say about them as well. They have been bullet proof for him. Good luck with your decision!

My suggestion wasn't so much that they needed to be Boyds, but rather that what goes into them essentially addresses what you seem to want.

A custom handbuilt has no inherent advantage over a well built 'stock' handbuilt, only the options to choose components.

In your case, it seems a 23mm wide rim is a no brainer for it's allowance of lower pressures. I have experience with the HED C2, Velocity A23 and Kinlin XC279 (same as BHS 472 and used in the wide Vitesse). The HED is a very nice rim, but all 4 of the Kinlins that I have built were also good. Flat and round right out of the box and had smooth brake tracks. And a much deeper brake track than on the XR300 your old Vitesse uses.

CX rays are good spokes so not much to say there. In Oregon (and actually, everywhere) I would want brass nipples which I believe Boyd uses. Hopefully your builder will too. I don't know if your old wheels were 20/24 or 24/28, but for long term daily riders I think the 28h rear is in order. You may not notice any extra stiffness, but if you do you will appreciate it.

And last is the hubs. The new Boyds are proprietary. I dunno if you have thoughts towards 11s, but my sense of you is that you change things around. A lot. It would be good for you to have hubs that give that option. But there are other 11s compatible hubs, just get some.

So my point is there are many people who can bake a great cake, I just think Boyd has a good recipe for yours.

My one point would be to wait a couple of weeks for the Belgium+. Nothing hurts quite as much as dropping some serious money on a toy and having the new version out very quickly.

Also, why not go for the DT 350 hubs you liked? That'd drop some of the price out of the set. Or even WI T11.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts - thank you.

My Helix OS bike's training wheels are HED. C2 rims, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, 28F 2x and 32R 3x, alloy Prolock Hex nipples, WI MI5 front hub, and WI H3 hubs with 24c Vittoria Open Pave tires - I have put about 5000 miles on them in the past year and they are fantastic.

When Prowheelbuilder had a sale last holiday, I got another wheelset for my R330, again HED. C2 rims, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, 32F radial and 32R 3x, brass nipples, WI MI5 front hub, and WI H3 hubs with 25c Continental GP4000s tires - so far, I have about 1000 miles on them this year, and I still love this build.

I think I paid about $600-$700 for each pair. These are training, aluminum, wide profile clincher wheels - coming in around 2000 grams with latex tubes. I weigh 190 lbs and usually inflate my tires 90-95 psi front and 95-100 psi rear for the 24c tires and 80-85 psi front and 90-95 psi rear for the 25c tires. Believe you me, the ride is so supple and the tires really open up wide - the 24c measure at 25.5 mm and the 25c measure at 27.5 mm! I think the ride is probably as close to tubulars as you can get!

I am sure you will love the HED. C2 wheels.

But, just like you, my dream "luxury" wheels are also a set of ENVE 3.4 tubular wheels with Sapim CX-Ray, 20F 2x and 24R 2x, with WI T11 hubs - glued up with 23c Veloflex Carbon front and 25c Veloflex Arrenberg rear tubular tires.

Soon. As soon as I completely vest my two sons' 403b college funds...

Mark

Purely aesthetic question here...
 

PURELY aesthetics here. I have not made up mind which hub i will end up going with yet and the only thing that will make me decide is if i can honestly see myself getting used to the CK free hub sound. That being said, I'm trying to think about which hub will compliment best. I know MOST people may not care and just slap it on, but every part of my bike has been put together with great thought, there would be no different with this decision.

So here are my thoughts.

DT swiss 240 Hubs, BUT I do not like the red logo's on the 240. I prefer the white strips on the 350. Obviously I do not want it to say 350 when I have the 240's though. SO, jude said she would order the stickers of the 350, cut the 350 off

here is the 240
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...ad-front_1.jpg

Here is the 350 stripes which everyone in person has commented about how they go with my bike perfectly. I would simply cut the 350 off
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...307_104806.jpg

OR if i go with the chris king r45, I was thinking "pewter" which is kind of a charcoal grey. I could always go black hubs as well.
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...ter-2013-1.jpg


thoughts?

whats this about the Belgium+? I cant find anything on it.

bianchi, excellent series of posts! Now that you're done, I'll add some thoughts of my own....

Your original wants for such a light wheelset and clincher and inexpensive was totally unreasonable. A light clincher wheelset will come in between 1400 and 1500 gms. If you want to get to super light and still stay clincher, you give up reliability and aero. The only way to get a sub 1300grm wheelset and still stay reliable and aero is with tubulars.

That said... The HED C2 rim is outstanding! I just recently switched to it on my winter bike from a set of kinlin's. I love the feeling of the wide profile, and my local wheelbuilder said it's the best Al rim he's ever worked with. It's an excellent choice. It is a bit more pricey than the H+, but it's a better rim and warranty issues (if you are unlucky enough to have them) will be much easier than dealing with the imported H+. Oh, and the new Belgium+ rim referenced a few posts above IS available. My local guy has a few in stock for build orders.

Of the 2 hubs you mentioned, I much prefer the CK. IMO (and I know I'm gonna get slammed for this), the DT Swiss hubs just don't roll was smoothly or as free of friction. From the research I've done, it's down to the size of the axle, internal geometries, and much more aggressive bearing seals. The CK also has the advantage of being made in America buy a small company that really stands behind their product. Any issues you have (if you have any) will be taken care of quickly and professionally.

In short, it'll be a great wheelset and one you'll be able to ride for many years. You may need to replace hub bearings around the 20k mi mark though :-p.

If you don't mind a suggestion, check out the Alchemy hubs. IMO, one of the best engineered hubs on the market. Incredibly smooth rolling, and very very low resistance from seal drag. Though they may increase the price of the build about $100.

I'm not going with a white industries based on Judes suggestions. she carries them and I can could purchase any of the WI options since she stokes all models, but she suggested for my type of riding that I go with even the DT swiss 350 over the WI. She said it was just her suggestion and not telling me what to do.

Jude has been VERY honest and open with me. we have talked a lot and i have given her detailed feedback on each experience. she has taken that info and made her suggestion. Plus, i think the WI hubs are not as nice aesthetically speaking.

thank you for the info and feedback on the C2 wheels. It really does help ensure that I am moving in the right direction. I was looking at the alchemy hubs on FW.com. I will ask Jude about them. Now after going through this experience I have come closer to realizing that my expectations in a light clincher wheelset were unreasonable. Which is why Jude told me that I was an interesting case. I wanted the best of all worlds, which just cant happen.

Fair enough. I'll just leave you with this for a second opinion on some of the hubs you are considering: http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-bl...-overload.html

Some models are missing/outdated, but there is still lot's of good information.

I agree with the crux of this. I'll bet that if all of the wheels tested were blackened, hubs hidden, spokes & spoke pattern indistinguishable, the result ride opinions would be much different. In the end the decision will come down to asthetics & cost.

I prefer CK's looks.

+1

I have C2s laced to a WI hub up front and Powertap SL+ rear. Best set of wheels I've ever owned. Tough, stiff, very comfy. I'll give more detail about weight if requested. :)

Bob

The pewter CKs look great, but I honestly liked the bit of color splash with your bike - adds a bit of personality missing in all black and white; I would probably do red or blue.

Please share. I'm not blind testing them so the more info given then better. Thanks