No, I get it. I didn't need to introduce your obvious conflation into the discussion. 25 mph on the flat in still air doesn't equal the same speed up a 7% grade into a stiff wind.
Duh. Thanks anyway. :)

I sort of disagree. Yes it's ideal to have every rider pulling equally. But sucking wheels at the back until you pop is the best way to improve your group riding skills and get faster.

+1. Despite popular belief, roadies are not all ******** and generally don't have a problem with riders hanging on the back provided they stay back and don't disrupt the paceline.

+1.

If you aren't getting dropped but can't pull through then hang at the back. As a rider drops back after their pull leave a gap and say "in". They should understand and the tempo of the group should be uninterrupted and unaffected by your presence.

That's exactly how people eat during a ride so there shouldn't be aproblem. I'd be far more comfortable seeing and hearing that from a rider I don't know who joined our ride that having someone hit the front and kill the tempo. That causes overlapped wheels and then an unnessessary surge. Both should be avoided.

Fun read. I ride alone for good reason.

There's no shame at riding in the back of a group if you can't pull.
I regularly do this on Wednesday group rides where 1/2/3's, State Champions, and even an Olympic Gold medalist (speed skating) are regulars.
On the way out (usually moderate pace into the wind) I take my turns pulling. On the way back, I suck wheel for as long as I can hold on.
It seemed like every month I could hang a little bit longer, last few rides (before I got sick) I have been able to hold on all the way back to the parking lot.

If I wasn't 'allowed' to even join the group because I couldn't pull, I'd be sitting on my couch 30+ lbs overweight. Keeping up with that group (and shortly thereafter signing up for races) was the motivation to keep me on the bike.

For the record, that Olympic Gold Medalist has only intermediate bike handling skills, but HOLY CRAP does he have a sprint. And his thighs look like Chris Hoy.

Agree with you. Our group of three have participated in a few different pacelines over a couple of riding seasons. This is the indignant part I mentioned. The way it played out was...after the first few miles of our group of 3 simply staying in the back of the line, when we stopped for a light, the comment was...hey...if you are going to hang, you have to pull. I said...we were waiting for our turn. You never rotated to the back. You see, they never embraced really the idea that we were joining them. After some brief discussion, the dynamic changed a bit and there was more cooperation. Quite right, not all roadies are dicks but the flip side is...some are.

Thanks. So the group you speak of was cool. Accomplished riders who didn't have an ego problem apparently...like Bob doesn't and others that responded that are cool with guys without the same horsepower riding off the back. I feel the same way. I in fact never have a problem with a guy grabbing my wheel when I am out riding. If I don't like it, I always have the option of stopping but I never do. I sometimes pull for other guys if I feel energetic as well. I try to be friendly on the road. But some guys do get their panties in a twist a bit easier. Sounds like the consensus here is...its ok for a guy or two to hang off the back...its better than slowing the train by a slower rider's inability to pull at a good speed.

I was speaking I guess at a personal level...a sense of belonging. There are different level group rides for different pace riders. I am no CAT 1 for example and probably shouldn't be in such a ride. Yes, I 'may' be able to hang off the back for a while...not sure how long...but pulling in the upper 20's for any decent stint isn't in my make up. So best for a guy like me to seek equal strength riders to paceline with. To me its a respect thing. The group we joined was in the speed range of my buddies and I. If not, I would have felt obliged to not partipate to not slow them down.

How long are the pulls at say 23, 25 mph. 1 minute? 2 minutes? Or more?

It depends on the day and the ride. The other riders may have been tired and on their way home and would have appreciated some help into the wind. If you were letting gaps open they would naturally fill the gaps as they came off the front thus keeping you out of the rotation. Sounds like you got it sorted once you talked though which is all that is really necessary. Most hurt feelings or disagreements are due to lack of communication.

Depends on the rider. We are not all equal as you know. There was one young gun in the group who was an amateur racer. He was pulling at 25 mph for a couple of minutes. He was sending a message to the rest of the group. :) I would say the average speed of the line was 23-24 mph. Average pulls were for 2-3 minutes.

No gaps. Initially the three of them tried to drop us. We had enough burst speed to catch up...upper 20's to reel them in. You are so right about the communication thing.

Wait a minute. You start a thread asking a very basic question and now you want to dismiss an important clarification? The reason the clarification is important is because it is a common n00b mistake to try to hold the speed over rollers with their eyes glued to their computers. So they surge uphill and stop pedalling going back down. Perhaps this, and not your age, is why you sensed irritation from the group.

All the solo riding in the world will not prepare you for working in a group. And if you're asking a question as basic as how hard to pull at the front, it would behoove you to adopt enough humility to try to learn. Either that, or stick to solo riding.

It depends upon the type of ride and what the group is trying to accomplish. If the paceline is rotating, it may be just long enough to put in a few strokes and shift to the decelerating side. If it's just a throwdown ride, it could be anything. If it's an endurance ride with riders of different abilities, the big horses might take pulls for several minutes while slower riders take short pulls.

So...would a typical pull...for say 2 minutes..by a "typical rider" (recognizing variability as you noted) be a watt output of say 250-270 watts? I ask this as I'm curious (not being a categoried rider) but I'd like some measure of watt effort. If you asked me to go pull 25 mph for 1 minute...well you'd get one pull out of me for maybe a minute (assuming I could even roll with a 25 mph paceline...thats a big assumption and likely I couldn't) then I'd be gassed, dropped. I'm 58 and would love to ride at that speed but it'll take me another year just to average 17+ solo and having no friends or partners locally who ride faster I'm destined to go it alone. BTW, I use Bike Calculator to get an approximate estimate of my watt output.

Thanks for the comments.

Interesting. I agree it's effort NOT speed. Also, the primary point needs to be maintaining safety...then whatever effort is going. My observations are along the lines of...

1. Yes, there is some real prick behavior out there & sadly road cycling seems to bring a lot of it out. I chalk it up to insecurity, but hey I'm no shrink.

2. Communication when joining (or inviting to join) a paceline is key. For instance, on a long & very challenging ride yesterday a group I was in had a good pace going and as we passed riders who were struggling alone a bit we invited them to hop on. In that case, we weren't going to change our pace to suit them and I don't think any of us expected them to pull (although they did and other than one being a little squirrelly they were ok).

3. Pull what you can. If it's 30 seconds, cool. If it's 30 minutes, cool. I may thank you for doing it, but then again, I don't expect to be thanked for every pull I make so I may not think it if when you drop back & past me in the line. (had someone yesterday angrily say, "you're welcome" to which I replied "thank you", but thought to myself, "isn't the pull what you normally do up front, are there any other affirmations you need me to give you?")

4. I continue to fail to see why sitting on in the rear is so offensive to some. I totally agree with the comments above that it is (as long as you're safe) a healthy way to observe & learn how a paceline works & to get stronger when you are one of the weaker riders in a group). On the same ride yesterday, there was a 40+ mile lead out that was probably averaging around 25mph. Besides the benefit of being moto-paced (it was an organized event, but not a race), there was a group of about 5-8 very strong riders who started rotating after about 20 miles and by about 30 were visibly annoyed that no one from the larger group of about 20+ riders behind were not coming up and taking pulls. There were so many assumptions being made that this could warrant a thread of its own, but basically I couldn't see any reason other than ego for being annoyed. In my case, this was the first 40 miles of a 115 mile ride w/ 9000+ feet of climbing...I was glad be part of the working paceline, but would have been equally glad if the pace were a gentler 21 or so and it was clear (to me at least) that I had nothing helpful to contribute other than filling in a spot in a continuous paceline for the people behind me. Basically it's this for me: I'll put in the work as much as I can given the ride specs/my fitness/etc....sometimes that is a lot of pulling, sometimes it's hanging on for life at the back...usually it's some reasonable point within that spectrum.

4.5 What I don't do on a ride where I can't/don't contribute much is take part in the sprint at the end...that I just can't be comfortable with.

5. Sometimes after a ride and experiences along these lines, I collect my thoughts and am thankful I don't take myself so seriously. Cycling is supposed to be fun.

6. One of the least enjoyable aspects of this sport I love so much is the personalities & behavior it seems to bring out in some. Bummer.

in the group I ride with, a few folks would pull for a mile, or even more at 25-26. But then if they did that, they're probably out of the final sprint. I try to keep it up at the 25-26 pace for half a mile, and then bail to the back. But sometimes, that means I'll have to sprint from the back of the pack. the last half a mile picks up to 28 or so before some makes a move, usually off of the front. it's really good experience

it all depends on the group. I do my fair share, though.

My suggestion is to fret less about this stuff and ask around your local bike shops to find a recreational club ride you can join. Email the ride leader if you can. See if they have cue sheets so you know where you're going. Show up early to your first ride and talk to the ride leader and tell him you're new and want to learn. You'll probably be looking for a no drop 'B' ride. Pay attention and listen to what people tell you. Group riding can be lots of fun if you find the right group and are willing to learn the skills you'll need.

Pull as long as you are comfortable and ride just hard enough to keep things moving.
The Tuesday night ride got canceled due to rain here this week, so some of the "fast crowd" came to the "relaxed pace" Saturday ride.
It was a 37 mile route through an area I ride often so I got designated group "GPS". I lead and took turns pulling though the long rollers and climbs of the ride. The last 10 miles, were a 2 mile fast decent followed by 8 miles of rolling flats. The pace lined formed on the flats and I could barely hang on but could not rotate through. They kept accelerating as each rider came to the front, I let the rider sliding back in front of me, and hung on.
While talking at the end of the ride, I commented that I could not match their acceleration and hung on the back trying to keep up. All the guys said was, if you want to ride fast, ride with people who are faster, and that I pulled all day in unfamiliar territory, and that I should come on Tuesdays.
No ego, no attitude, just sharing the sport.

I ride a lot here in Norcal, and that's absolutely not common. You might have three guys draft you for awhile, but you don't paceline with them in rotation unless you all verbally agree on it in-ride. It's different for hammerhead rides where people are getting dropped as said, but those are NOT pacelines.

This is true, but showing up for the B ride and cranking up the pace is kinda frowned upon.

It was all good, it's a very laid back group
Pirk

You don't seem to have had any answers. This may be because it isn't possible to generalise about "typical" pulls, riders or wattages. And one has to remember that as you emerge from the draft to take the pull, the power you have to put out to maintain the pace increases substantially.

I have a problem with the emphatic statements that the object is to maintain a consistent effort rather than a consistent speed. Yes, that is true in that one does not want the guy on the front to hammer uphill in order to maintain speed, and thus put everyone on the rack. But the idea is to maintain a consistent effort for the group, not the individual. So if I am second wheel I might be doing 25 mph and putting out 240 w because I'm sheltered. As the front guy pulls off and exposes me to the wind I maintain my speed, which means that the guys behind me get to maintain a consistent effort, but requires me to put out (say) 280 w. So the guys behind me get to put out a consistent effort, but my effort has risen for as long as I am on the front. These figures aren't accurate but you get my drift.

I'm your age. You'd be surprised how much faster you can go in a paceline.