I've raced a time or two...
I use a Force Grouppo and a mish mash of other stuff.
Is there a performance difference? Don't know but if you look at some of the US Domestic Pro teams (i.e. Jelly Belly, Competitive Cyclist) not all are/were on the top tier (i.e. Force rather than Red).
If I am going to invest the money it is going to go into:
Wheels
Power
Training/Racing

Could really give a rat's ass about whether it is the best of not...

Ultegra @ 3900 miles, Small chain ring; 2nd chain; 10 speed cassette all needed replaced.... - so i was looking at $225+ of replacement parts. This was on my 2010 Madone, i didnt like the new shimano hoods in particular and kept hearing about how Campy, although more expensive lasts longer. I found that i prefer the campy hoods over shimano.

Yeah. We occasionally would see UHC riders on the River Ride or Wheelworks Ride. They were on Ultegra if I recall correctly.

If you don't do basic maintenance, you're going to wear out parts much faster than normal. It doesn't matter which group you use. You had to replace cassettes and chainrings because you rode for quite a while with a worn chain.

after 13 years of riding (some competitive), i realize basic maintenance will prolong groupo's life......
I had replaced the ultegra's chain around 2k and the 2nd chain was gone again at 3900mi.
I'm doing the same maintenance on my Campy drivetrain as i had done with Ultegra. The campy by my watch is lasting much longer.

I had 105 on my previous bike. I specifically moved up to Ultegra because I had 1-2 minor issues with 105 that are resolved in Ultegra. There are minor differences in durability/maintainability, but form an overall functionality standpoint, you don't get much benefit above 105.

SRAM Force is the best bang for buck gruppo out there. Have it on 3 of my bikes and will only go to red due to a great deal.

I was able to get Red at a substantial discount a few years ago when SRAM was doing a "grassroots deal" for race teams. After a few thousand miles I replaced the FD (too flexy), chain and cassette (too noisy) with "lower level" components. Top of the line is not always the best, especially when it's new.

I disagree with skipping Athena, Athena is a workhorse group from Campy like 105 is to Shimano. I would skip Centuar and Chorus not Athena. I have Athena on one of my bikes and it's good stuff. If anything I would get the Athena group and upgrade the rear derailleur to Chorus. Athena uses more forged parts instead of stamped parts found on Campys lower end stuff, and they use steel bushings in the derailleurs instead of plastic.

But I would use Centaur cassettes because their cheaper. Athena shifting feels like Chorus or Record whereas the lower level Campy feel plastic, feels like low end stuff. Some people cry about Chorus rear brake is single pivot...BIG FREAKING DEAL!! I have all sorts of older bikes with single pivot brakes and the really nice ones like the Suntour Superbe feels just as good as the dual pivots! A dual pivot brake system will not stop you any faster then single pivots because it's all about tire adhesion and brake pads; so to have a single pivot design on the rear is a complete non issue.

The only question I have in regards to the new Athena 11 speed is how reliable will it be, and how often will chains need to be replaced. Supposedly from what I understand, you can use a Athena group with a 10 speed cluster and chain, someone may want to verify though to make sure that's right. If that's right then you can make it less expensive to operate by doing the conversion. Personally I don't see the point of having more then 7 or 8 gears in the rear, but it's the wave of the future to make us have 100 gears back there someday, and with that thinner chains and gears so they wear out faster.

By the way, on my new bike I went with 105 all around except the rear derailleur is Ultegra. I was going to go with Campy Athena but not one shop in the town I live in carries spare parts so I would have to order parts and wait. I decided against the possibility of repair hassles and waiting.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that best bang for your buck by FAR is the lowest-entry level group (likely Shimano 2200 or 2300).

No, it's definitely NOT as good as 105-DA and even a new road cyclist will notice the difference. But will it shift reliably and accurately for everything except rapid hi-pressure (think criterium attacks) shifts? Yes.

You might 'think' you NEED 105 (or Dura-Ace) but in reality, you'd be able to ride perfectly fine on a 2200 group, even if you're a very strong rider. And no, they don't wear out crazy fast either - my entry level Giant Defy3 is a Sora/2200 mix triple and still shifts fine even after 3.5 years, with the only replaced in that time being the chain.

Shimano even doesn't make the 2200 or Sora groups easy to purchase unless you're buying a whole entry level bike - your LBS will almost certainly not carry a retail-packaged set of those, whereas they'd happily and readily sell you 105 and up groups. (They could probably do a 'deal' with OEM parts.)

I disagree with the above. When I got the 105 group I upgraded the 105 rear derailleur to Ultegra because it had better and faster shifting abilities, but also the 105 rear D used nylon bushings instead of steel like the Ultegra, and according to Matthew at Adrenalin he said the Ultegra would last longer then the 105 and I believe that to be true. Now that is not always true that the better the component the longer it will last because he also said that the Dura Ace rear D would not last as long as Ultegra due to using lighter sub-components.

And I've known people who purchased Sora and Tiagra and hated that stuff. It's good stuff if you never plan on putting many miles on a bike, but if you're a serious rider at all the stuff will fail quicker then 105. You can buy Sora complete group package on Amazon.

I'm a serious rider. I also have and use the Sora, so I can say from direct experience and not just from hearsay - the Sora holds up just fine. I though it would die an early death, and was expecting to upgrade it within a year, but several years later, and there is no reason to do so. I'm sure it does wear out faster than 105-ultegra, but if it's good enough to hold up just fine for several years without anything other than 2 chain changes (which were done preemptively, not because things were not working anymore), I wouldn't call it wearing out early.


For one of those years riding the Sora actively, it was my MAIN bike since I reserved my DA Cervelo for race day. I logged at least 80 miles per week all year on that Sora and peaked at around 220 miles per week with the Sora bike for a short stretch. In retrospect, in the 3 years I've ridden that Sora bike (it even became a commuter later one) I've logged at least 7500 miles on it, and that's probably a lowball estimate. Everything works great even after 3 spills, and as said, only the chain has been changed because the chain checker showed it was nearing the 1.0mark (still shifted fine).


And even if you do have to change the cassette - the parts cost nearly 50% of what ultegra costs. I still am shocked at how little the brake calipers are - the Sora calipers on Amazon are $37max (closer to $20 on avg) and the ultegra calipers are $140+. And honestly, if you just put on decent pads on the Sora (which are like $10) they brake really well - makes me wonder why I even bother with the expensive stuff since I've had zero complaints with it.



Also, even if you can buy individual parts individually on Amazon, I don't consider that the same access as buying the whole group. As you know, you get price gouged if you buy new parts piecemeal, compared to the group, making it cost-effectively pointless to buy a whole groupset piecemeal new (it would probably be cheaper to buy a 105 BIKE from bikesdirect in comparison compared to buying Sora piecemeal new.)

I used to ride both my Sora bike a lot more than my dura-ace bike for the past 4 years, until the past 9 months where I've been pushed to the dura-ace bike because I bought a powertap so I want the power data. But if it weren't for the powertap, that Sora bike is every bit as fun and effective to ride even with the slightly (and I mean very slightly) slower shifting. Shimano would love for you to believe that Sora is total crap, but it isn't.

I'm a newb but I've noticed significantly better downshifting functionality in Ultegra compared to my 105 stuff, and the same guy adjusted both derailleurs. There is a little more hunting for the gear when downshifting on the 105 stuff than Ultegra and that "hunting" is inconsistent from gear to gear. Basically, you have to increase lever-throw on downshifts for the easier gears. I don't know if that's related to the derailer or the shifter.

hhnngg1 I agree with you to a certain point, if you have a casual bike then Sora is fine, but I don't think 7,500 miles is a lot of miles, even a Walmart Shimano groupset will last that long!

I do agree that the cassette is better because it's made of steel instead of titanium gears or carbon carrier material that wears out far faster like you find with Dura Ace. And I also agree that the cost of replacement parts are far cheaper which is why I went with 105 because the briftors for Dura Ace alone are around $600, whereas the 105 is only $210 (both prices are for the pair); and I don't think, after using both, that the Dura Ace is $400 better then the 105, it feels like maybe $25 to $50 dollars better!! And Ultegra feels the same as Dura Ace. Thus I would never buy a set of Dura Ace or Ultegra ($400 for the pair) integrated shifters. But I did test ride a bike with Tiagra (which is supposedly better then Sora) and personally I didn't like the feel of Tiagra, it felt cheap to me, But Sora is not much cheaper then 105, only about $50 for the integrated pair of levers, and the quality of the build and feel between the two is vastly different, not like the difference between 105 and Dura Ace.

Then I have a friend who is a bike mechanic, among other things, that told me to buy the 105 because it was made better then the lower end stuff and would last longer, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and the higher end stuff. His only recommendation for the bike I ended up getting was to swap the 105 rear derailleur for the Ultegra. Matthew at Adrenalin Bikes where I ordered my bike from confirmed this as well when I inquired about it (I never told Matthew that a friend recommended I do that swap). They both said that the Ultegra rear derailleur was built better then the 105 and especially lower end models, but that the difference between the 105 and Ultegra front derailleur was nothing and since the front doesn't get used as often it was far less critical to spend the money to go with Ultegra. And every where I've read on the internet said basically the same thing, so in my mind I had confirmation.

The entire 105 groupset is only $760 retail list whereas the Ultegra is about 55% more, whereas the Sora is only 24% less then 105. I don't think saving $150 by going with the Sora groupset vs 105 is worth it, whereas I do think it's worth saving $500 not to go to Ultegra. When I swapped the rear 105 derailleur for the Ultegra rear d I only paid another $30 to do so, I felt $30 was worth it.

Please note, that is just my opinion, not meant to be argumentative about me being right and you're not, or whether or not someone should go with Dura Ace vs 105 vs Sora etc, it was my perception when I use the various groupsets and the perceived value in it for me and only me.

It might be the derailleur because I have the new 105 group but I have the Ultegra rear derailleur and I don't get that hunting. HOWEVER, I did test ride a full 105 group with the derailleur and I did not notice that hunting, nor did I notice it in Tiagra. I did notice that the shifts were not quite as fast with the 105 or the Tiagra rear derailleur, but it was only a tad difference. However, the shifters/brake levers felt cheap with the Tiagra vs the 105 but I could barely discern a difference with the Ultegra unlike mag reviews I've read but people who used both say the same thing I have been saying; see: https://www.beginnertriathlete.com/di...asp?tid=187662 (note; there is a guy there who feels the same about Sora as hhnngg1 does.)

I think for the cost differences 105 is the sweet spot for Shimano.

I've ridden several groups - nothing current though - 2300, Sora, 105 (5600), Ultegra (6600) , Dura Ace (7800), and the new Campy Centaur 10sp. I have to say, it all works really well. Yes, there are differences in feel and weight, but its all going to shift when you hit the button. None of them have been bad in my experience - not even the 2300. So far, I prefer the Centaur that's on my bike now, but the differences are pretty minor across all the different groups I've tried. I fully expect all of them to last a really long time. I've had to replace two RDs (105 and DA), but that was the result of other problems causing the failure.

[MENTION=72878]rek[/MENTION]meykata - Sounds like we agree.

I do agree with your assessment that for the higher Shimano lineup, 105 is very good, and should offer nearly all the performance of ultegra and DA. And yes, there is a noticeable difference between 105 vs Sora, both in ergonomics and speed of shifting.

My main point was really at the 'bang for buck' aspect. I've seen plenty of folks argue that 105 is the best bang for the buck, and that's fine for them. I'm just saying from my experience that in terms of pure function-for-cost, Sora is the winner. It does NOT mean Sora is the best, and does NOT mean that I prefer Sora to 105 - in fact, if I had to go out and buy a new cost-effective bike tomorrow that still gives me high enjoyment, I would def buy 105 (or up) and skip Sora, as I do value the better shifting, similar to you.

But if I were truly going by function-for-cost, Sora wins hands down, even if I personally don't buy bikes any more purely by maxing this ratio out.

I think a lot of you guys are confusing value with performance. It's not like Shimano purposely makes garbage products, so even the Sora-level stuff is going to work. I'm seeing a lot of posts defending the use of lower-level components, as if the perception is they are garbage or don't work properly. Obviously all the various level components are going to work, it's just a matter of whether a person can perceive the difference in groupsets. For me, personally, I feel a HUGE difference between the 6700 stuff and the 9000 stuff. But if I was going between 5700 and 6700, I might barely feel a difference, or none at all. And, there may be some people who won't feel the difference between any groupsets, regardless of its "level".

It's obviously up for debate the VALUE of Sora vs the VALUE of DA, but the quality difference is obvious.

If Sora can get you there with basically no speed penalty, and only slightly slower shifting, but at 1/6th the cost of DA, I don't think you can say DA is a better bang for buck, even if you like the way it handles much better.

When it comes to how much you're willing to pay for crisp shifting, ergonomics, etc., the sky's the limit and there's no answer. But in terms of bang for buck dollar for the actual measurable performance, Sora or other entry Shimano parts are the winner, even if it's not something you'd use yourself.

I drive a midlevel car even though econoboxes are the most cost-efficient and highest bang-for buck. Same argument.

Interesting thread... Brings up a question... Assuming you want a total bang-for-buck group and can mix and match. which components from each group are the best bang for buck?
For example:

Sram: Everyone loves pointing out the problems with the last gen of Red Front derailers and cassettes.... But, Apex brakes weigh just 18 grams more than Force (which weigh the same as Rival) but are half the cost of Force (and quite a bit cheaper than Rival too!). And you can fit fatter tires (up to 32mm!) with Apex

Shimano: 105 hubs have the same bearings, races, and cassette body as Ultegra (same replacement parts = same inside)

What else?

Again, beating the dead-horse, but for pure bang-for-buck, the cheapest Shimano stuff that they'll still hang on an LBS bike (not a wallyworld bike) is the cheapest, even if some find it lacking in subjective factors that rule it out for some.

I don't think your question is quite approaching it the same way - sound s like you've got a subjective level of performance in mind (or else SRAM Red wouldn't even come up), and when you do that, you can't make a blanket statement as easily.

The Sora will get you there 99.9% as fast, and with 99% no hassle and last a really long time. Hard to beat that bang for buck criteria, even if you won't touch it with a stick because you hate the feel and ergonomics.

I'm sure it is. Only problem for me is I didn't like the Sora shifter, and my choices was a Sora 9-sp vs a Tiagra 10-sp.

I went for Tiagra and it's great. It shifts better than an old Ultegra 9-spd that I had.

I'm still not a fan of the Shimano hood shape but i'll deal with that when stuff actually wears out.

I think I kind of answered that. According to all I could gleam off the internet and my bike use to be mechanic by trade friend, and Matthew at Adrenalin Bikes, I felt 105 was the best bang for the dollar with low replacement part cost, but upgraded the rear derailleur to Ultegra because all the sources I knew said it was built better to last longer and shift better then 105 and it only cost me $30 more on my build.

Also, when I bought the 07 Mercian the find fine folks at Mercian went over this same discussion and concluded, which they are highly knowledgeable in this, that Campy Athena was the best bang for the buck in the Campy line and did not recommend changing the rear derailleur to Chorus because the Athena was basically 3 or 4 year old Record. At the time I purchased the Athena, and the group was a 06 model groupset not an 07 as the bike was, which Mercian gave me a cheaper price at the time on that Athena in England then I could have gotten 105 for in America! On the Lynskey the Athena would have cost me $600 more then 105 in America.

The Mercian with the Chorus group was built for touring, whereas the Lynskey with the 105 was not if that matters.

I don't know enough about SRAM to comment.