Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Hanging with the group

Search
Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Hanging with the group

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 07-16-13 | 08:26 AM
  #26  
merlinextraligh's Avatar
pan y agua
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,810
Likes: 1,232
From: Jacksonville

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Originally Posted by nahungry
I was able to hang with the group but I kept failing to notice when the pace picked up until they started pulling away rapidly and would catch up to them either when they slowed down to cruising speed at around 22 mph or I push my rear and burn myself to death every push to catch up right away. Once caught up, I was okay hanging with the group; not saying it was a breeze but I was okay.
Not having the sense to see the push right away made me fall about 5 bike lengths away every time and that made the whole effort so much harder without any draft on windy trail.
It's something that comes with practice. You learn to read the ride, and be able to predict accelerations, or at least react to them quicker.

Keep your head up; don't fixate on the wheel in front of you. You need to keep the wheelin your peripheral vision, so you don't overlap, but your focus should be up the road, looking past the rider in front of you. That will make you smoother in the paceline, as well as safer in that you can see problems developing sooner.

Use your ears too. You can hear sounds such as free hubs clicking( or stopping clicking), people shifting, etc., that also help you anticipate surges and lulls.

Watch who's pulling, and when the lead at the front changes. You'll be able to learn what happens to the pace of the group as those changes happen.

Mostly, its just repetition, and trying be really situationally aware.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 09:26 AM
  #27  
pallen's Avatar
Descends like a rock
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,034
Likes: 16
From: Fort Worth, TX

Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer

Sounds like a good workout. The surges are what I was talking about. A group that goes a steady 23mph can be easier to hang with than a group that averages 18, but constantly surges, sprints and attacks. The latter will probably make you faster.
pallen is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 09:54 AM
  #28  
FLvector's Avatar
Stand and Deliver
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,340
Likes: 1
From: Tampa Bay

Bikes: Cannondale R1000, Giant TCR Advanced, Giant TCR Advanced SL

As long as this group doesn't mind that you keep coming back, you should jump at the opportunity, since it will make you a better and stronger rider. Experience only comes with miles and time in the saddle, so do different rides, but keep challenging yourself. If you feel like you're struggling to hang on with a group and are doing full rotations, don't spend much time at all on the front and save enough to get back on, otherwise you'll be cooked and quickly drop off the back. Most groups don't mind if you do short pulls, but they do mind if you slow down their pace.
FLvector is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 10:07 AM
  #29  
caloso's Avatar
Senior Member
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 40,863
Likes: 3,115
From: Sacramento, California, USA

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

First of all: Great job!

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
It's something that comes with practice. You learn to read the ride, and be able to predict accelerations, or at least react to them quicker.

Keep your head up; don't fixate on the wheel in front of you. You need to keep the wheelin your peripheral vision, so you don't overlap, but your focus should be up the road, looking past the rider in front of you. That will make you smoother in the paceline, as well as safer in that you can see problems developing sooner.

Use your ears too. You can hear sounds such as free hubs clicking( or stopping clicking), people shifting, etc., that also help you anticipate surges and lulls.

Watch who's pulling, and when the lead at the front changes. You'll be able to learn what happens to the pace of the group as those changes happen.

Mostly, its just repetition, and trying be really situationally aware.
Seconding all of what Merlin said. On the bolded part: when I first started going on group rides, a friend of mine who was an experienced racer advised me to keep my eyes on the jersey pockets of the rider in front of me. You will see any changes of pace or direction immediately and more importantly it's easy to look from there past the rider and up the road.
caloso is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 10:11 AM
  #30  
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
just another gosling
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,555
Likes: 2,667
From: Everett, WA

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Group rides are high stakes games. A few milliseconds of inattention can take you or someone else down. You shouldn't be allowing more than a wheel width gap to open. If you're having bike lengths open, you aren't paying anything like enough attention. You can't do that. If you were in the middle of the line, you'd be splitting the group. Keep your cadence up so you can respond, and watch what's happening.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 10:41 AM
  #31  
cyclezen's Avatar
OM boy
20 Anniversary
Community Builder
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,316
Likes: 1,307
From: Goleta CA

Bikes: a bunch

sounds like a good learning experience
it's been mentioned to monitor riders in front of you, but I like to place myself where I can 'see' 3-4 ahead, at least. 'Learning' the gap distance between riders is important. Experience lets you develop an understanding of the visual distance between you and other riders - I like to use the head and shoulders. That allows you to 'see' ahead quite a bit and anticipate much better.
You can 'practice' this observational skill during slower warmup times, when riding is steady. Place your wheel the distance you wish from the rider in front, then look up to observe the distance - try to hold that distance. AT first it will take some concentration, but surprisingly quickly it'll become second nature, as does constant scanning of the surroundings. Soon you won;t even notice you;re making adjustments to your position based on this observing.
Additionally, unless there is a single paceline under high duress, I never ride directly behind the rider in front. I offset a few inches to one side. It allows for some natural accordianing of the group without causing disasters. Additionally, you'll easily be able to 'see' 3,4 or 5 layers ahead to anticipate much better, and you have the ability to see some road hazards. When you see a road hazard hand signal, that's the time fall in line with the wheel in front (hoping the rider in front is picking a good line...)
I try not to offset to the 'outside' of a rider unless I plan on advancing my position. If riders in front are 2 or more abreast, natural quick movements go to the outside. It almost never happens that riders abreast go towards each other (except in a crazy sprint...); so the safe place to be is between 'pairs'/3/4 upfront when in a large group - you have a guaranteed 3 ft of space between them that will keep your wheel clear.
As in here:

each following rider is offset from the pair infront...
However, when the group is riding 2up in steady tempo, it's expected that you'll also follow suit and ride behind the wheel in front, and not hog the middle...
...lot to learn, but riding in a fast group is huge fun!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
147998918[1].jpg (95.1 KB, 21 views)
cyclezen is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:14 AM
  #32  
Campag4life's Avatar
Voice of the Industry
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
It's impossible to say. 22+, may mean the group cruises around 22-23mph. It also may mean, we average 22mph or better, and often get going in the high 20's or low 30's.

Those are two very different things.

It also may be a group that goes a pretty steady 23 mph, or it may be a group that has constant surges and attacks.

And there may be hills, and if there are hills, it may be a group that waits for everyone at the top, or at least does a rolling regroup, or it may be a group that eats its young.

The fitness and skill required will vary greatly depending on where this ride fits into the above referenced continuim.

As said above only one way to find out.
True. And OP...you could also do a trial run. You don't have to just dive into the deep end.
Rent an electric moped and pace the group you intend to ride with. If possible track speed with a Garmin and download it and then study the speed signature and elevation changes. Then compare that to your power production adjusting for the aero benefit of pacelining.
This will give you a better sense.
Campag4life is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:14 AM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 2
From: Westchester County, NY

Bikes: Giant TCR SL3 and Trek 1.5

Originally Posted by caloso
This would be true where it's a steady speed. But many rides have a very mellow, neutral roll out and then you hit the start (which by the way will be a signpost or a guardrail or a tree or even a line where the pavement color changes) and then it's on like Donkey Kong. If you're not ready and able to match the surge and get in the draft, you'll be off the back before you know what's happened.

Which is why I recommend asking what's up at the start and being self-sufficient in any case.
Perhaps some clubs have this, but this scenario's a race more than a ride. I personally wouldn't think of this as a very enjoyable event; if I want this kind of thing, I'll do a Fondo, but to each his/her own.
cafzali is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:16 AM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 2
From: Westchester County, NY

Bikes: Giant TCR SL3 and Trek 1.5

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Group rides are high stakes games. A few milliseconds of inattention can take you or someone else down. You shouldn't be allowing more than a wheel width gap to open. If you're having bike lengths open, you aren't paying anything like enough attention. You can't do that. If you were in the middle of the line, you'd be splitting the group. Keep your cadence up so you can respond, and watch what's happening.
I've never thought of them as such, really. If you're part of a racing club and going on a training ride, then sure. But to many people, there's nothing enjoyable about a normal recreational club ride that has a "high stakes game." Heck, we don't even have that much in the NYC area unless you want to do the all out races at Floyd Bennett Field or something similar.
cafzali is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:17 AM
  #35  
merlinextraligh's Avatar
pan y agua
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,810
Likes: 1,232
From: Jacksonville

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Originally Posted by cafzali
Perhaps some clubs have this, but this scenario's a race more than a ride. I personally wouldn't think of this as a very enjoyable event; if I want this kind of thing, I'll do a Fondo, but to each his/her own.
Here, we call that Tuesday night.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:21 AM
  #36  
merlinextraligh's Avatar
pan y agua
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,810
Likes: 1,232
From: Jacksonville

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Originally Posted by cafzali
I've never thought of them as such, really. If you're part of a racing club and going on a training ride, then sure. But to many people, there's nothing enjoyable about a normal recreational club ride that has a "high stakes game." Heck, we don't even have that much in the NYC area unless you want to do the all out races at Floyd Bennett Field or something similar.
I think the high stakes Carbon fiber boy is thinking of are not "winning the ride"

Rather it's the risk of serious injury or death that is on the line anytime you ride in a group. Obviously it's fairly rare for people to suffer severe injuries on group rides, and fourtunately exceedingly rare for people to die, but both happen.

The point being that bad stuff can happen if you mess up, even on a moderately paced, non competitive, ride, and you need to take care in your own riding, and be alert to trouble developing from others
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:21 AM
  #37  
Campag4life's Avatar
Voice of the Industry
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
Originally Posted by pallen
Sounds like a good workout. The surges are what I was talking about. A group that goes a steady 23mph can be easier to hang with than a group that averages 18, but constantly surges, sprints and attacks. The latter will probably make you faster.
While surging can be an issue, in my experience, very few pacelines average 18mph unless that they are a C group. 23mph average is a fair average in a paceline for a decent cyclist.
Campag4life is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:24 AM
  #38  
Campag4life's Avatar
Voice of the Industry
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Here, we call that Tuesday night.
Yeah...depends on the ride. OP..keep this in mind. Group ride dynamics are as variable as the day is long. Some eat their young and other rides are like a mild breeze. Pick the type of ride based upon your temperament and skill level and you don't know until you try. Worse case you get dropped and that maybe better afterall if you don't like to suffer.
Campag4life is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:29 AM
  #39  
caloso's Avatar
Senior Member
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 40,863
Likes: 3,115
From: Sacramento, California, USA

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Here, we call that Tuesday night.
+1

Coincidentally enough, I was thinking about our local Tuesday night ride.
caloso is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:39 AM
  #40  
RollCNY's Avatar
Speechless
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8,842
Likes: 39
From: Central NY

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Group rides are high stakes games. A few milliseconds of inattention can take you or someone else down. You shouldn't be allowing more than a wheel width gap to open. If you're having bike lengths open, you aren't paying anything like enough attention. You can't do that. If you were in the middle of the line, you'd be splitting the group. Keep your cadence up so you can respond, and watch what's happening.
My wheels are 23mm wide. Are you telling someone who has never done a fast group ride to ride within 7/8" of everyone else?
RollCNY is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:42 AM
  #41  
Senior Member
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,201
Likes: 289
From: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by Campag4life
While surging can be an issue, in my experience, very few pacelines average 18mph unless that they are a C group. 23mph average is a fair average in a paceline for a decent cyclist.
He's likely talking about the average for the whole ride including stops regroups, warmup, cooldown etc. 23mph avg for a complete ride would be unusual.
gregf83 is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:44 AM
  #42  
Senior Member
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,201
Likes: 289
From: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by RollCNY
My wheels are 23mm wide. Are you telling someone who has never done a fast group ride to ride within 7/8" of everyone else?
Turn the wheel 90 degress and it's 26" wide. But I think you knew that
gregf83 is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 11:58 AM
  #43  
pallen's Avatar
Descends like a rock
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,034
Likes: 16
From: Fort Worth, TX

Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer

Originally Posted by Campag4life
While surging can be an issue, in my experience, very few pacelines average 18mph unless that they are a C group. 23mph average is a fair average in a paceline for a decent cyclist.
I guess that gets down to what you mean by "average". I'm talking about the distance traveled divided by the time you were out. Yes, flat cruising without a headwind is often around 23 and up, but there's also points where we wait to regroup and slow spin a bit after a sprint, etc. that bring the total average down.
pallen is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 12:14 PM
  #44  
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: IL

Bikes: Cervelo S5, Trek 2.3

Originally Posted by pallen
I guess that gets down to what you mean by "average". I'm talking about the distance traveled divided by the time you were out. Yes, flat cruising without a headwind is often around 23 and up, but there's also points where we wait to regroup and slow spin a bit after a sprint, etc. that bring the total average down.
The ride definitely cruised around 22~24mph on flats. Very windy stretches, slow-down after surges and rolling re-group from time to time and slow stop and move all combined (Plus me having to stop for a minute to tighten my saddle that came lose for some reason), my bike computer averaged the complete ride at 18.3
nahungry is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 12:24 PM
  #45  
AdelaaR's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 4
From: Vlaamse Ardennen, Belgium
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I've found not knowing my way back, is worth about 25 watts FTP from the fear of getting lost if you drop.
AdelaaR is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 12:29 PM
  #46  
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
just another gosling
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,555
Likes: 2,667
From: Everett, WA

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I think the high stakes Carbon fiber boy is thinking of are not "winning the ride"

Rather it's the risk of serious injury or death that is on the line anytime you ride in a group. Obviously it's fairly rare for people to suffer severe injuries on group rides, and fourtunately exceedingly rare for people to die, but both happen.

The point being that bad stuff can happen if you mess up, even on a moderately paced, non competitive, ride, and you need to take care in your own riding, and be alert to trouble developing from others
In the past month, our club has had two riders abandon after going down from wheel touches. Two other riders abandoned after running into curbs. Two other riders went down when their tires were caught in pavement gaps. These were on relatively easy recreational group rides. The curb hits are especially interesting. It's easy to hit stuff that's hidden behind the riders in front of you if you aren't paying very close attention, or to make a small error and drift into a curb. And always cross a pavement cracks at a decent angle, but OTOH don't take someone down if you jerk the bike around. Which means you also need to know where the bikes behind you are.

Yes, the stakes are injuring yourself or others. One go-down can ruin your whole season or someone else's. Those are high stakes to me.
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 01:17 PM
  #47  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
From: Ogden, Utah

Bikes: CAAD 10, Cervelo P2 SL, Focus RG-700, Quintana Roo #101

I'm not a good climber since I am a lardass now, but on the flats, I'm always itching to go. Usually I'm the one who attacks at 30 mph. Over in Davis, the only elevation we had is the overpasses, but those are not very steep so it's still very easy to ride wheels and attack at 20+ mph.

I used to ride in the slow ride with my hybrid commuter bike. In the medium to fast ride, I love it when others try to attack. I always am able to latch on. It's more about keeping your senses aware. There's always a slight body movement and a change in sound when the guy goes. Immediately I go out of the saddle.

I used to do heads up sprints with the sprinter on the Davis collegiate team although he'd be on his fixed gear. Always a fun and close match
justkeepedaling is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 01:25 PM
  #48  
Campag4life's Avatar
Voice of the Industry
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
Originally Posted by pallen
i guess that gets down to what you mean by "average". I'm talking about the distance traveled divided by the time you were out. Yes, flat cruising without a headwind is often around 23 and up, but there's also points where we wait to regroup and slow spin a bit after a sprint, etc. That bring the total average down.
ok.
Campag4life is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 02:31 PM
  #49  
merlinextraligh's Avatar
pan y agua
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,810
Likes: 1,232
From: Jacksonville

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Originally Posted by pallen
I guess that gets down to what you mean by "average". I'm talking about the distance traveled divided by the time you were out. Yes, flat cruising without a headwind is often around 23 and up, but there's also points where we wait to regroup and slow spin a bit after a sprint, etc. that bring the total average down.
an example where average is not a very good metric:




The average for this group ride was 23mph. But the top speed was almost 34 mph, peak 5 minutes almost 29 mph, and peak 30 minutes 26mph.

The warm up and cool down distorts the average.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
tuesday night.jpg (102.8 KB, 23 views)
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Reply
Old 07-16-13 | 05:41 PM
  #50  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: Chandler, AZ

Bikes: Specialized Tri Cross; Specialized Tarmac SL3

I've had a really tough time find a group that works for me. I've ridden with one that advertises, "18-20mph," got dropped, caught up because a guy got a flat, then ended up passing some of them on a hill.
Another group said 18-20 and it was unbearably slow. To the point that I told the SAG guy at the back that I'd go off on my own. He tried to talk me into hanging, but I took off. I ended up seeing the group later--after I had ridden a pretty big hill and done an extra 4-5 miles--and was really glad that I split off.

My best, "group rides," have been small rides with friends. Through Strava I've connected with a bunch of locals, and have some triathlete friends. We get together, do a nice ride, all agree on our start time, route, and stops ahead of time. These don't happen as often as I'd like, and I end up riding alone 90% of the time.
Of course when I'm out riding solo I sometimes latch onto other riders or groups. I'll ask if they mind if I join them. We'll usually talk about where we're going, etc. I usually ride in areas that are bicycle-friendly, so it is pretty rare that I'm all alone the whole time for any ride.

For most of my solo rides I hold 18-19mph, but when I do organized tours I'm able to hold 21-22 for 65-70 miles.
aztimm is offline  
Reply


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.