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-   -   So how are you supposed to fall? (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/906396-so-how-you-supposed-fall.html)

ursle 08-08-13 06:13 PM

Don't, just like horses, keep the vehicle between the ground and yourself at all times

err, there are no old, bold pilots...

Cookiemonsta 08-08-13 06:43 PM

There are so many variables that play a role. I really do not believe there is a "best way" to fall. Especially once you consider how other people using the road might hurt you after and during the fall.

Brian Ratliff 08-08-13 07:47 PM

I've fallen my fair share, almost all of them uncontrolled falls during races. The key is to not lock your elbow. I end up reaching out a hand, but when my hand hits the ground, my elbow isn't locked. My momentum simultaneously collapses my arm and rolls me up over my shoulder. I've ended up with sprained shoulders, concussions and, once, cracked ribs, but nothing broken. Most of my crashes involve someone doing something to my front wheel. Once you've experienced this, you'll know you have basically no time to think about things. You are on the ground before knowing you crashed.

The best advice is to hang onto your bike until you are well and truly out of control. This leaves little time to anticipate "catching" yourself, which is how people get injured; better to surrender completely and roll with it - there is no way you are going to arrest your momentum with your limbs. The other benefit is, occasionally, you'll hang on and be credited with a fine save.

mprelaw 08-08-13 07:53 PM


Originally Posted by rebel1916 (Post 15940802)
Landing on your hand or elbow can easily lead to an elbow fracture. I have done it both ways.

Wrists don't make such great "springs", either.

wphamilton 08-08-13 08:41 PM

I've found a few videos that show what I'm talking about. I don't endorse anything about them; I simply picked some that were illustrative. One way to do a side fall http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=9U59hbQKDn0

Some falls demonstrated here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka6ML4DEKc0 at a more realistic speed. Notice that the first example here is the side fall above. You use that for "low-side" falls, or when you don't have time or the position for a roll. About in the middle he shows the right position for what I call "back-fall", the technique I once chose for first impact at a highway speed, from more than 10 feet up. These techniques work - but you aren't using them to arrest your momentum or anything else except the vertical impact. There is also a front-fall but you wouldn't do that deliberately from a moving bike. In all of these falls you use the hands and arms to take up the shock - but the right way, not the instinctive one.

Falling from a bike I will go for a shoulder roll whenever possible. for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYce-c5QlA Again, you do use your hand and arm - curved, for a circular motion which moves the impact on a line from your arm, shoulder, across the back to the opposite hip and ending in a side-fall (in aikido) or rotating up for probably another roll in real speed. You don't take the impact on the shoulder, or the elbow, or the hip etc. These aren't the best or only ways to take a fall; there are a number of techniques and disciplines but they are basic and effective. Far better than a vague idea of rolling, or going limp, or passively sliding, and don't believe anyone who says it all happens too fast or that there are too many possibilities to make a technique work. More than likely, they simply don't know the techniques or haven't trained them. The downside is that you do have to train and practice until they are second nature.

caloso 08-08-13 11:36 PM

Not trying to be snarky, but I thought it was common knowledge that sticking your hand out to catch yourself risks a fracture or separation.

Brian Ratliff 08-08-13 11:51 PM


Originally Posted by wphamilton (Post 15941452)
... Far better than a vague idea of rolling, or going limp, or passively sliding, and don't believe anyone who says it all happens too fast or that there are too many possibilities to make a technique work. More than likely, they simply don't know the techniques or haven't trained them. The downside is that you do have to train and practice until they are second nature.

I get where you are coming from, but try these rolls with the ground coming at you at 20-30mph and you don't get the kind of control they are referring to. Also, if you've never had your front wheel swept when you weren't looking at it, you've never seen an uncontrolled fall. It takes about 1/10th of a second to go from balanced to unbalanced if you have your head turned (you aren't anticipating the sweep) and your front wheel gets swept hard. That's not even enough time to get your eyes around enough to see what happened to you. From there, it takes less than 1/2 second to hit the ground. According to this website, my reaction time is something like 0.25-0.30sec. That means I have about a quarter second to orient my body to hit the ground. Not enough time.

Kids, this is why you wear a helmet.

Brian Ratliff 08-08-13 11:59 PM


Originally Posted by caloso (Post 15941821)
Not trying to be snarky, but I thought it was common knowledge that sticking your hand out to catch yourself risks a fracture or separation.

It does. My elbows don't lock. It's an evolutionary advantage I possess. Technically, you can stick out your arm as long as you hit the ground with a bent elbow so you don't transmit shock into your collarbone through your wrist and elbow and use that arm to guide the rest of your body into a roll over your shoulder (you don't want to end up doing a 30mph one-armed pushup). This is what the Aikido video teaches. But it's probably better for most people to just keep hold the bars and roll up into a ball upon impact. Just whatever you do, tuck your chin. Don't try to absorb shock with your teeth and nose. I have it on good authority that this is one of the bad methods of falling. But, as I found out last year, you don't always have a choice in the matter. Left a face print on turn 3 of our velodrome.

aaronmcd 08-09-13 12:01 AM

On a similar note, I haven't fallen in clipless yet (fell/got hit a few times in toe clips, but I could slip my feet out and ditch the bike easy). I am wondering if you can get out of clipless in time (my guess is no way).. so do you just stick to the bike and carry it with you? I am going to start racing very soon and am wondering about this.

Brian Ratliff 08-09-13 12:05 AM


Originally Posted by aaronmcd (Post 15941851)
On a similar note, I haven't fallen in clipless yet (fell/got hit a few times in toe clips, but I could slip my feet out and ditch the bike easy). I am wondering if you can get out of clipless in time (my guess is no way).. so do you just stick to the bike and carry it with you? I am going to start racing very soon and am wondering about this.

Just like downhill skis, you end up separating from your bike naturally when you fall. It's all very magical... until the pain sets in about 15 seconds after the crash.

birdhunter1 08-09-13 12:14 AM

How are you supposed to fall? According to Master Chief Billy Sunday (A Robert DeNiro character in the movie Men of Honor) "..........he shall not stagger. And if he should stagger, he shall not fall. And if he should fall, he will fall in such a manner as to cover up his rank so that passerbyers will think he is an officer."

I had a bad wreck a few months ago with no injury, my dad swears the body learns to take a hit and to take a fall and remembers those reactions. I hadn't been on a football field as a player in 15 years but he swears my body remembers how to do it. Then again my nephew (15 years younger than me) and I try to kill each other every winter with a 4 wheeler and a sled so maybe I have to tuck and roll more than I think.

Long Tom 08-09-13 02:33 AM

It goes without saying, but- protect your head.

You are not your wrist, or your collarbone.... they are (useful) accessories. You are your head. Not fun to break your head.

Notgrownup 08-09-13 04:31 AM

In a nano second when my wheel went off the road and i busted my hand i 1st didn't try to unclip my shoes then 2nd put my arms to my body to tuck n roll...i was too busy saying OOOOOH! $$$$$$$&&&$#*#(($($$IIIITTTTT....

miamijim 08-09-13 05:34 AM


Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 15940678)
That sound's fine, but doesn't that clear the way for the shoulder to strike the ground with full force. I am not saying that's wrong, but can you explain how it is right? Put another way, what are the historical hand injuries you are familiar with that are so bad they induce you to protect the hands and expose the shoulder and head?

I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying its what I do. I figure tucking my arm is a lot better than extending it.....I'll take my chances.

Historical hand injuries? Thumb injuries are the most common ski injury, I know, skiing isn't cycling but its something to think about. And we all know broken collar bones due to arm extension are a common cycling injury. Oh.....there's the broken thumb I suffered due to arm extension.

wphamilton 08-09-13 08:30 AM


Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 15941838)
I get where you are coming from, but try these rolls with the ground coming at you at 20-30mph and you don't get the kind of control they are referring to. Also, if you've never had your front wheel swept when you weren't looking at it, you've never seen an uncontrolled fall. It takes about 1/10th of a second to go from balanced to unbalanced if you have your head turned (you aren't anticipating the sweep) and your front wheel gets swept hard. That's not even enough time to get your eyes around enough to see what happened to you. From there, it takes less than 1/2 second to hit the ground. According to this website, my reaction time is something like 0.25-0.30sec. That means I have about a quarter second to orient my body to hit the ground. Not enough time.

Kids, this is why you wear a helmet.

That's why you have to train the break-falls to expect them to be useful. It may sound counter-intuitive but a quarter second is plenty. I think that what people tend to miss is that you're falling at about the same speed regardless of how fast you're going forward. It's a reaction; you just do it. Protecting yourself in the vertical fall is the first step - provided nothing is in the way - and reducing speed without excessive jarring and impact, by rolling tumbling or sliding is the second part. A roll is possible even after bouncing off the first fall at those speeds and faster - I've done it, even in my mid-30's. Even after 50.

I remember as a kid on motocross bikes, falls at that speed seemed incredibly violent feeling like the ground was clubbing you, and sanding your skin off. Leathers, helmet, gloves and boots and the indestructible youth I did ok with no training other than dozens of spills. Much later, even after only a limited training it's a completely different story - if I feel a hard jar or get road rash it's mostly because I did something wrong. Or bad luck, something in my path.

Rekless1 08-09-13 08:57 AM

You risk breaking anything when you fall, period.

There's nothing wrong with using your hand and arm but like everything else, it must be used correctly.

The key is "using it" as part of the system and not in an attempt to absorb 100% of the load. The whole process is dependant on the specifics of any given fall however.

RPK79 08-09-13 08:57 AM


Originally Posted by Excelsius (Post 15940778)
I guess it all depends on the situation:


I got distracted around 0:51. What were we talking about?

merlinextraligh 08-09-13 09:15 AM

Eddy Borysewicz, former US National coach, used to have his riders do tumbling drills on a mat to train how to tuck and roll.

It's set out in his book, that while now very dated, still has good information in it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Road-R.../dp/0941950077

kaisersling 08-09-13 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by DaveWC (Post 15940682)
The only time I fell is when I went through the back windshield of car. So I fall by stopping my body with my face. Not recommended. I imagine if I fell normally I'd use my hands to break my fall so I wear gloves. The description fauxto nick gave is the one I learned in martial arts and works really well, but would be tough to do when clipped into a bike.

How the heck did you manage to go through the back windshield? I am more of front hood roll into the front windshield kinda guy..... but also with my face ;)

merlinextraligh 08-09-13 09:29 AM

Not like this:


approximately 4:35 point.

Campag4life 08-09-13 09:31 AM


Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 15940678)
That sound's fine, but doesn't that clear the way for the shoulder to strike the ground with full force. I am not saying that's wrong, but can you explain how it is right? Put another way, what are the historical hand injuries you are familiar with that are so bad they induce you to protect the hands and expose the shoulder and head?

Robert,
I just had a bad fall for me at least...was riding in town in a non competitive setting oddly enough...wasn't leaning...riding about 12 mph and the bike went out from underneath me....remarkable occurrence and still don't know why I went down. Only thing I can think is a combination of sand and catching a small crevice with my front tire but both were hard to detect.
Since I went straight down on my left side, I had no time to react or unclip. As I was going over, I tucked my left arm into my body and tried to spread the force over my shoulder and hip. I bounced...including the side of my helmet against the payment. Miraculously, I wasn't badly hurt though I had a serious scrape on my elbow. Next week I was very sore. I did ride another 50 miles back to where we started in the ride and it didn't badly affect my riding.
I have to say this fall rocked me a bit physiologically. Now I take nothing for granted on my bike. I think if any of us fall even knowing all the tricks, falling is almost inevitable. I hadn't had a spill in about 3 years and try to ride carefully. I try to avoid high speed descending...and careful when I descend in spacing with other bikes.

Brian Ratliff 08-09-13 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by wphamilton (Post 15942595)
That's why you have to train the break-falls to expect them to be useful. It may sound counter-intuitive but a quarter second is plenty. I think that what people tend to miss is that you're falling at about the same speed regardless of how fast you're going forward. It's a reaction; you just do it. Protecting yourself in the vertical fall is the first step - provided nothing is in the way - and reducing speed without excessive jarring and impact, by rolling tumbling or sliding is the second part. A roll is possible even after bouncing off the first fall at those speeds and faster - I've done it, even in my mid-30's. Even after 50.

I remember as a kid on motocross bikes, falls at that speed seemed incredibly violent feeling like the ground was clubbing you, and sanding your skin off. Leathers, helmet, gloves and boots and the indestructible youth I did ok with no training other than dozens of spills. Much later, even after only a limited training it's a completely different story - if I feel a hard jar or get road rash it's mostly because I did something wrong. Or bad luck, something in my path.

Have you ever had your front wheel swept? It's not the fall, it's the lack of anticipation. If you see it coming, you can definitely move your body to protect yourself in whatever way you've practiced. In fact, prior to racing, I was convinced that I would never hit my head because all my prior crashes I've seen from a long way away; a helmet seemed optional for me. I would feel myself losing control of my bike and there was plenty of time to get set up for a good fall.

After my first race crash in which a fellow apparently went off the road and came back on into my front wheel, the crash was fast enough I hit my head hard. Realize that this had never happened to me before, even though I've had my fair share of crashes prior to racing.

When I referenced my speed, I was referencing two things. One, when you go to roll, you roll quite a bit more quickly than an equivilent roll from a stationary position. Two, at faster speeds, the bike is more stable, but when forced unstable, it loses stability quite a bit more quickly than at slower speeds. If you are going 30mph and someone rides into your front wheel, your bike might depart stable rolling at a lateral speed of 10 or 15 mph. At those speeds, it'll take something like a 10th of a second to move the bike 3 feet laterally, at which point your CG is now in free fall. If the sweep is unanticipated, you are on the ground practically before you know what happened.

canam73 08-09-13 09:52 AM

Just make sure after you fall you properly recoup:


carpediemracing 08-09-13 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 15940620)
Really and truly not trying to start a fight. Just saying that using the hands to break a fall is intuitive. In a rational sense the hands and elbows have a spring like effect to absorb some of the shock of the fall. It is hard for me to understand why you would let the next higher up body parts that have no give at all (shoulder, head) take the punishment when the arms can reach down and reduce the distance of the fall. Especially when the hands can be (referring to my other active post) somewhat padded with gloves. I have always used my hands to break bike falls and have never damaged my shoulder nor even touched my helmet to the road. The clavicle is incredibly brittle and fractured clavicles are so identified with cycling that I wonder why you would even chance landing on your shoulder. I should mention that I am such a klutz that the idea of some rolling maneuver is totally beyond me.

Okay, so discounting my own practice and experience, the established wisdom seems to be not to use the hands. Please explain to me why and what is the recommended procedure instead.

I had an unfortunate opportunity to witness/study/research a topple-over bike crash (at 24 mph) that resulted in fatal head injuries to the rider. The rider specifically kept his arms down against his body, leading me to initially believe he had passed out before he fell over. Later it turned out that the rider trained himself to fall without using his hands/arms because it would lead to broken wrists, elbows, and collarbones. He had suffered a concussion the prior year doing the same thing. He had a world class helmet on, properly fastened, but it didn't make enough of a difference in his final crash. When he died he had no broken bones other than his skull, and he had almost no road rash.

When you fall you need to absorb the kinetic energy in some way before it gets to your head or your neck. I think everything else is considered somewhat healable, but your head/neck needs protecting. If it means sacrificing the integrity of an elbow or collarbone then so be it, it's better than dying.


Originally Posted by wphamilton (Post 15941452)
I've found a few videos that show what I'm talking about. I don't endorse anything about them; I simply picked some that were illustrative. One way to do a side fall http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=9U59hbQKDn0

Some falls demonstrated here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka6ML4DEKc0 at a more realistic speed. Notice that the first example here is the side fall above. You use that for "low-side" falls, or when you don't have time or the position for a roll. About in the middle he shows the right position for what I call "back-fall", the technique I once chose for first impact at a highway speed, from more than 10 feet up. These techniques work - but you aren't using them to arrest your momentum or anything else except the vertical impact. There is also a front-fall but you wouldn't do that deliberately from a moving bike. In all of these falls you use the hands and arms to take up the shock - but the right way, not the instinctive one.

Falling from a bike I will go for a shoulder roll whenever possible. for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYce-c5QlA Again, you do use your hand and arm - curved, for a circular motion which moves the impact on a line from your arm, shoulder, across the back to the opposite hip and ending in a side-fall (in aikido) or rotating up for probably another roll in real speed. You don't take the impact on the shoulder, or the elbow, or the hip etc. These aren't the best or only ways to take a fall; there are a number of techniques and disciplines but they are basic and effective. Far better than a vague idea of rolling, or going limp, or passively sliding, and don't believe anyone who says it all happens too fast or that there are too many possibilities to make a technique work. More than likely, they simply don't know the techniques or haven't trained them. The downside is that you do have to train and practice until they are second nature.

I agree with the ^

I've fallen a number of times while riding my bike. I admit I hit my head a few times, mostly when mountain biking but also on the road. I reach out with my hands/arms, plant them well, and roll.

I took Judo as a kid, 6 months when I was about 10 or 11, 10 months when I was 14. I never got beyond the most basic stuff. The very first thing you do is learn how to tumble, and you drill on that in every lesson. Towards the end of my second stint of Judo (max advancement - yellow belt), we were sprinting at 5-7 students standing with their heads bent down, jumping over them, and landing in a forward roll on the mat beyond. I wasn't the tallest kid in class so I had to leap up to clear some of the kids.

Imagine sprinting at full speed, launching yourself up and forward as hard as you can, looking like Superman in the middle of air, and landing on your hands going into a forward roll.

This is normal in Judo, and in fact the instructor's son is now teaching my nephews. My brother is taking classes, again, and he said that it's amazing to see people just launch themselves in the air. He was in my class back then and he says that it's tough to fathom. It works though, and he's doing it now (at 43 years old).

So although you may not have time to think about a lot of stuff when you're about to hit the deck you'll still have some trained instincts working for you before you make contact. Look at boxers or martial artists. They're not planning ahead, they are in this zone where they can react instantly, using their training.

There's one crash in particular that illustrated this to me. I hit a patch of hidden ice at something like 45-50 mph and went down before I realized what was happening. The full story is here but basically back then no one wore helmets. That day I was wearing my "kevlar" helmet - my yellow Campy cap that looked like kevlar in color. I slid and tumbled a lot. I never hit my head. I was about to ride back to my dorm but I was cold so I called for a ride.

Another crash, when someone swung across the field in a race just before the sprint. I couldn't have hit the deck faster - it was like someone just kicked the front wheel out from under me. I was going almost 30 mph when I crashed. I distinctly remember tucking my head to protect it and I felt and heard the helmet hit the pavement right after I pulled my chin in. I was so tucked over that my head was almost between my knees and someone hit the back of my upper thigh. That impact resulted in a fractured pelvis because my muscles and tendons were stronger than the bone they were anchored to. Except for an injured shoulder muscle, road rash spots on my leg, arm, shoulder, and a deep bit of road rash on my ankle I was essentially fine.

For crashing on a bike the training isn't that intense - take a beginner Judo class or even try it on your own. The kneeling forward roll is great - it's very hard to hurt yourself doing that. In Judo we started from a standing position so there was a lot more force when you hit the mat. We then progressed to walking into the roll, running into the roll, clearing lower objects going into the roll, clearing students on their hands and knees, clearing students bent over at the waist, then a student with just his head tilted down. The final bit was to have more and more students lined up with just their head bent down and to run and jump over them.

Ultimately, though, remember what's important - your head. Your instincts to reach out with your arms is not taught, it is there when you're ready to start walking. Our doctor lifted up our 9 month old son and swung him down head first to the floor. Our son's arms went up, not from inertia but from instinct. The doctor said that our son was ready to start walking soon, that he had the right instinct done (I guess he was strong enough to lift his arms up). When he started walking he'd fall forward and reach out with his hands. It's kind of funny because he's fling whatever he was holding really far, like 10 feet sometimes, and he still can't throw anything on purpose (he's 17 months old now). When he fell he protected his head, and that's the most important thing.

Elbows, collarbones, wrists, they might hurt but you don't die when you injure them. Neglect protecting your head and you can die. I know, I've seen it.

lsberrios1 08-09-13 09:58 AM

I tend to tuck into a ball. Only fallen once off my bicycle and it was @ 2mph so not much. But I speak motorcycle and of the 4 highspeed crashes ive had, like I said, I tucked into a ball closed my eyes once hit the ground slide for a little and once you are fully stopped stand up. Not broken bones except for one of them in which I already had a broken arm and was riding with my cast, going up a dirt hill the bike fliped over en broke the bone again...

TUCK INTO A BALL, CLOSE YOUR EYES AND START PRAYING


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