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Take a look at my new chain: is it too short?

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Take a look at my new chain: is it too short?

Old 08-10-13, 11:37 AM
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RomeoTango
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Take a look at my new chain: is it too short?

Added a new chain, for the first time, last week. Through my own inexperience I ended up one link shorter (105 links of KMC X10SL) than what my bike came with (106 link of Shimano 5600). Take a look at my pic. Is it too short?

I've noticed that my running gear is a bit noisier, but I also have new wheels and cassette (cassette that wobbles a bit - I am going to work on that today). With the original chain at 106 I could get away with the big-big combination, but with the new chain I get a lot of noise in that combo. Actually a lot of noise with the big to 25, 23 and even 21. Noise gets less as a go from big to small cogs in the rear.

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Old 08-10-13, 11:51 AM
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fauxto nick
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For me, personally I find this to be a bit tighter than how I'd set it up. I wouldn't spend a lot of time in that gearing combo if you're going to run it like this as from my experience sometimes it can get caught up in that position when you're trying to shift down. It also is putting a lot of stress on your RD and if something was to go wrong, there's not a lot of room for mistakes.

If it was me I'd probably cut my losses and buy a new chain.
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Old 08-10-13, 12:16 PM
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I also would get a new chain. Are you sure that's just one link difference or your previous chain was the right length?
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Old 08-10-13, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
I also would get a new chain. Are you sure that's just one link difference or your previous chain was the right length?
Actually, it would be 2 links, and yes too short but should never be a full cross over anyway.
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Old 08-10-13, 01:01 PM
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Yes. its way short, I'd consider adding 3 links then adjust the RD to swing back slightly more.
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Old 08-10-13, 01:19 PM
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Yes, too short. It's probably 2 links shorter than your previous one, if it's the correct size (not length) chain. Did the new chain come that length, or did you remove links? When I've bought new chains they were always too long, then I cut them to the identical length of the one I was replacing. If you removed links, you could just add 2 from the length you removed.
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Old 08-10-13, 01:34 PM
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IMO, the chain might be OK if it wasn't run big chainring to big sprocket. As mentioned above, that's a bad gear combo since it has too much crossover. If you shifted down one cog on the back, things would loosen up considerably.

If you're careful to avoid crossing over as in the picture, it might be OK, but if it's possible to accidentally crossover that much, replace the chain with the proper length.
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Old 08-10-13, 01:54 PM
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a little short, but if it was me, I wouldn't bother with new cause I'd never use large/large or even the next size down with the big ring.
Part of your noise is likely due to the 'loose' cassette. If you have the lock ring tight and the cassette still wobbles, then check that the freehub is proper on the wheel hub body. And depending on your cassette/feehub combo, it may require the 1 mm shim.
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Old 08-10-13, 02:05 PM
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Too short don't take a chance running in big big combo is actually ok for most drive trains as long as you do not spend a lot of time. Add at two links links back on and a little cassette wobble is ok but I would simple go back make sure you have the 1mm spacer for a shimano 10 spd drive in the rear. Then tighten down the cassette per torque specs which is actually fairly tight. It does not need to be super tight but not just snug up either.
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Old 08-10-13, 02:23 PM
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Looks OK to me. Note that the chain makes a dogleg between the two jockey wheels so there is excess length. You can rotate the cage further and see that the chain will get a lot of slack in it when you do.
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Old 08-10-13, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
Looks OK to me. Note that the chain makes a dogleg between the two jockey wheels so there is excess length. You can rotate the cage further and see that the chain will get a lot of slack in it when you do.
I too think the chain is long enough. There is a distinct S curve around the pulleys - it's nowhere near being straight. But check to see if there's a little more give in the cage.

Read down a ways on this web page https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...-length-sizing and I think you'll see that your chain - at least from the photo you posted - looks long enough on the "big-big" combo.

I've used this guide - the distinct S curve around the pulleys on big-big, and a little more give in the cage - for many years to size chains or to check them if I put on a larger cassette. It's never failed me, and I use big-big from time to time (not often, but I'm not afraid of using it).
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Old 08-10-13, 03:02 PM
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Not sure about how much more flex the RD has means, but I can flex it forward and up (even more straight than in the pic).

I have reinstalled the cassette and tightened it pretty tight. I could go much more, but without a torque wrench I hesitate. I do have the 1mm shim in place.

As well, I am having a heck of a time get the RD tuned. Cable doesn't seem tight or want to be, shifting is horrible (noisy, skipping, jumping two cogs at a time, not shifting all the way up to the big gear), the wobble seems too much (will disassemble again and check the hub). I was able to tune just fine before the new chain, cassette and wheels. So much for upgrades - but its probably my inexperience in working on bikes showing through. Cables are original Jagwire (3 yrs), but not ridden more than a average years' worth. I might need a trip to the LBS.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:02 PM
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You have the chain in the wrong position to tell. A good benchmark is put it in the biggest ring / smallest cog combo. In this position, the axles of the RD jockey wheels should make a line that is exactly perpendicular to the ground (straight up and down). This is only guidance, but it has worked well for me.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
Actually, it would be 2 links, and yes too short but should never be a full cross over anyway.
+1
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Old 08-10-13, 04:09 PM
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Chain is probably correct according to Shimano's specs, but I'd use a longer chain. Shimano essentially wants you to use the shortest chain possible. I prefer to use the longest chain possible. In the small-small (and it looks like you have a double, so this would apply) I use the longest chain that doesn't hang slack. In your case it would probably be 1 pair of links longer, maybe 2 pairs.

Longer chains, for a given bike, have a bit less rolling resistance, simply because the derailleur pulley spring/s aren't wound up too tightly (and therefore exerting a lot of tension on the pulleys). In the old days the idea was to use a chain that was too long in the small-small - the chain would hang a bit, and assuming the rider didn't use the small-small it would mean that in the small chainring, second smallest cog would be okay.

Even though I have no empirical proof that a shorter chain is less efficient (i.e. a Shimano recommended length vs the longest chain that doesn't hang in the small-small), the shorter chain feels harder to turn on the workstand and it's noisier overall.

Finally, a tighter chain, meaning one with more tension, will be less forgiving of a slightly misaligned derailleur hanger. I'm guessing that it's bent in just a touch. A simply flex outward, using an allen wrench, usually fixes it without stressing the dropout too much.

There's more to consider but those are the thoughts off the top of my head.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
You have the chain in the wrong position to tell. A good benchmark is put it in the biggest ring / smallest cog combo. In this position, the axles of the RD jockey wheels should make a line that is exactly perpendicular to the ground (straight up and down). This is only guidance, but it has worked well for me.
Respectfully no. Big Big is perhaps the best method for chain sizing. The reason why is because Big Big is the biggest show stopper to driveline integrity. A chain too short as shown can have dire consequences. Always better to err on the side of a bit more chain slack than too little. Generally chain run on small small from a chain too big will not destroy a driveline than a too tight chain will on big big. The perpendicular method is a bit of compromise and doesn't portend the extremes. Many run a cage length that is marginal for ideal chain wrap which is most problematic if chain length is correct for you method.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:16 PM
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OP...a suggestion is until you put a new chain on the bike if that is your intent, tighten the inboard derailleur stop so you can't shift onto your biggest cog in back. Depends on your discipline. If you can keep from running extreme X chain on Big Big you will be fine. Some can't however.
Other thing is...most chain mfr's do NOT suggest adding links. I have done it however without consequence...generally from new links I removed when installing the chain which I shortened due to particular gearing. Buying a new chain is never a bad thing anyway.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:28 PM
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The chain length is not a problem but that is as short a chain as you would ever want to run and you can back off the b screw i(f there is room to do that) and this will reduce the chain tension in the big / big, just make sure your tension in the small / small is still right.

Shifting issues are a different matter and it sounds like an issue with cable tension being a little off or perhaps a bent hangar or both.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:54 PM
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Regardless of chain I am attempting to use better shifting/riding techniques in that I have been avoiding the big-big, small-small combos which force me to understand my gearing needs better and use them to ride better. If that makes sense.

So I think the consensus is the chain should be fine as long as I avoid the extreme combos. Though it may be more noisy. While this is a brand new chain, I may go ahead an replace (and call it a $45 instructional fee). This is how we learn...

I am really concerned that the short chain is/will cause shifting problems. I discovered that my rear cable is a bit frayed and needs replacing. I am convinced, though, that is not the issue with my RD tuning (but what do I know - I am new at this). I actually used a torque wrench at 30 ft lbs to reinstall my cassette. Stiill wobbles. My research online shows that this is common and likely causes no issues. Some even claim it helps with indexing. I dunno. I would rather it did not wobble.

I may take my old wheel set and do some swapping around of the cassettes to see whats what. Maybe I can learn something more along the way. Probably jack up two sets of wheels...
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Old 08-10-13, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Respectfully no. Big Big is perhaps the best method for chain sizing. The reason why is because Big Big is the biggest show stopper to driveline integrity. A chain too short as shown can have dire consequences. Always better to err on the side of a bit more chain slack than too little. Generally chain run on small small from a chain too big will not destroy a driveline than a too tight chain will on big big. The perpendicular method is a bit of compromise and doesn't portend the extremes. Many run a cage length that is marginal for ideal chain wrap which is most problematic if chain length is correct for you method.
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
OP...a suggestion is until you put a new chain on the bike if that is your intent, tighten the inboard derailleur stop so you can't shift onto your biggest cog in back. Depends on your discipline. If you can keep from running extreme X chain on Big Big you will be fine. Some can't however.
Other thing is...most chain mfr's do NOT suggest adding links. I have done it however without consequence...generally from new links I removed when installing the chain which I shortened due to particular gearing. Buying a new chain is never a bad thing anyway.
Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
The chain length is not a problem but that is as short a chain as you would ever want to run and you can back off the b screw i(f there is room to do that) and this will reduce the chain tension in the big / big, just make sure your tension in the small / small is still right.

Shifting issues are a different matter and it sounds like an issue with cable tension being a little off or perhaps a bent hangar or both.
Having worked on thousands of bicycles in our shop, my opinion from experience is that a chain this short CAN INDEED cause a problem. While in the photo there appears some slack remaining in the cage, this would be lacking during the shift since the chain must ride OVER the teeth before dropping into place. Screwing the stop screw in would be advisable to eliminate the chances of a shift.
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Old 08-10-13, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RomeoTango View Post
I am really concerned that the short chain is/will cause shifting problems. I discovered that my rear cable is a bit frayed and needs replacing. I am convinced, though, that is not the issue with my RD tuning (but what do I know - I am new at this). I actually used a torque wrench at 30 ft lbs to reinstall my cassette. Stiill wobbles. My research online shows that this is common and likely causes no issues. Some even claim it helps with indexing. I dunno. I would rather it did not wobble.

I may take my old wheel set and do some swapping around of the cassettes to see whats what. Maybe I can learn something more along the way. Probably jack up two sets of wheels...
the tight chain can certainly exacerbate shift issues, so like many other comments here, I usually err to the loose side.
'Wooble' depending on how you see it, define it, is not ok on a 10 spd system. There's a level of precision needed for this to work at optimum level.
Putting the new cassette on your old wheels is a great idea. Then adjusting system, and riding/testing that way will tell you how much the new hub/freehub is affecting the shift performance.
Put the old cassette on the new wheel and test that...
A frayed cable does 'stretch'/rubberband during use - get it replaced before doing anything else.

Your hanger seems permanent, and if you didn;t have shift problems before the swap of gear, you prolly don;t have a hanger alignment issue. SO I wouldn;t fool with the hanger - screwin that up could be an expensive/extensive fix.
WHeel dish - if the new wheel is not properly dished, the shifting will be all mucked up. Have the wheel dish checked on the new wheel.
BTW - what wheel set (the new one) are we tawkin about ??? you bought NEW? online or LBS?
A lot of the shift issues you mention smell a whole bunch like a crap wheel... poor freehub, not well mounted, maybe not well supported by the bearing. Use your old wheel and see if things settle down.

EDIT: and adding links to a 10 spd chain - I wouldn't chance it - and I tend to use the 'give it a chance' on most experimental stuff. But 10 spd chains are much more precision than the old moto chains we used. All to easy to lose a pin and slam the jewels on the top tube - been there, done that - much prefer a good poke in the eye...

Last edited by cyclezen; 08-10-13 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 08-10-13, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Respectfully no. Big Big is perhaps the best method for chain sizing. The reason why is because Big Big is the biggest show stopper to driveline integrity. A chain too short as shown can have dire consequences. Always better to err on the side of a bit more chain slack than too little. Generally chain run on small small from a chain too big will not destroy a driveline than a too tight chain will on big big. The perpendicular method is a bit of compromise and doesn't portend the extremes. Many run a cage length that is marginal for ideal chain wrap which is most problematic if chain length is correct for you method.
OK but:
1. The perpendicular guidance is actually in Shimano's service documentation.
2. I've been using the guidance for twenty years without a problem on Shimano drivetrains. Will it work for every bike? No. Is it a solid starting point? Yes.
3. In general big-big cross chaining is a bad idea and it seems misguided to me to base your chain length around accommodating a ratio that you really shouldn't be using in the first place. Just don't use that gear. There's no reason to any way.

Overall the chain in question here looks fine to me. Maybe slightly tight but there is definitely enough slack to prevent damage.

Last edited by Hiro11; 08-10-13 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 08-10-13, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fauxto nick View Post
For me, personally I find this to be a bit tighter than how I'd set it up. I wouldn't spend a lot of time in that gearing combo if you're going to run it like this as from my experience sometimes it can get caught up in that position when you're trying to shift down. It also is putting a lot of stress on your RD and if something was to go wrong, there's not a lot of room for mistakes.

If it was me I'd probably cut my losses and buy a new chain.
Yep, that's too tight. I ruined a Sram Red RD and the large/large combination wasn't as tight as that.
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Old 08-10-13, 08:02 PM
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New wheels are Mavic Open Pros with Ultegra 6700 hubs. Online from an LBS (Niagra). Had to have them trued at my LBS. Along with the wheels I also added the new casette, an Ultegra 12-15 (replacing my 105 11-25).
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Old 08-10-13, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
OK but:
1. The perpendicular guidance is actually in Shimano's service documentation.
2. I've been using the guidance for twenty years without a problem on Shimano drivetrains. Will it work for every bike? No. Is it a solid starting point? Yes.
3. In general big-big cross chaining is a bad idea and it seems misguided to me to base your chain length around accommodating a ratio that you really shouldn't be using in the first place. Just don't use that gear. There's no reason to any way.

Overall the chain in question here looks fine to me. Maybe slightly tight but there is definitely enough slack to prevent damage.
The perpendicular method you use addresses the 'nominal' I want to know worse case both Big Big and small small. If both extremes are covered...Big Big in particular having dire circumstance if the chain is too tight, the the nominal position you focus on takes care of itself.
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