"chronic cardio" and cycling for fitness-- is it BAD for you?
09-03-13, 12:12 PM
#101
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Just a comment on the general concept of: "My doctor is great doctor, and he says X is good, and that's good enough for me."
That's fine, unless you realize that there are always going to be other great doctors out there who say that X is bad. Which doctor you have and thus which opinion you get is pretty much the luck of the draw.
So that means you have to do your own research, which means you are probably screwed unless you have a strong scientific background and lots of time. Add to that the terrible science reporting, designed to sell advertisements, and you're even worse off.
That's fine, unless you realize that there are always going to be other great doctors out there who say that X is bad. Which doctor you have and thus which opinion you get is pretty much the luck of the draw.
So that means you have to do your own research, which means you are probably screwed unless you have a strong scientific background and lots of time. Add to that the terrible science reporting, designed to sell advertisements, and you're even worse off.
09-03-13, 12:17 PM
#103
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09-03-13, 12:18 PM
#104
Senior Member
Smell?
A person's scent changes with their hormone profile.
Worried about too much cardio and she's a runner?
Might be time to consider if she likes a more muscled you... Which also influences and is influenced by hormone profile.
Not a polite response but none of us are getting younger.
The increase in mortality is seen in extreme durations / distances. Think multiple marathons a year, ultra marathons, and such. I remember seeing (less often) reports in extreme distance riders, think RAAM.
Bone loss and such is also seen in professional bicycle racers.
Could be repeated mineral depletion?
Could be the extreme weight management?
Could be the PEDs?
No good data...
<edit>
Cycling can certainly impair hormone profile. Intense cardio type exercise can severely lower Testosterone, as can weight loss. Lower test is correlated with aging. Newer study questions this an posits age related damage lowering Test, not the aging itself.
A person's scent changes with their hormone profile.
Worried about too much cardio and she's a runner?
Might be time to consider if she likes a more muscled you... Which also influences and is influenced by hormone profile.
Not a polite response but none of us are getting younger.
The increase in mortality is seen in extreme durations / distances. Think multiple marathons a year, ultra marathons, and such. I remember seeing (less often) reports in extreme distance riders, think RAAM.
Bone loss and such is also seen in professional bicycle racers.
Could be repeated mineral depletion?
Could be the extreme weight management?
Could be the PEDs?
No good data...
<edit>
Cycling can certainly impair hormone profile. Intense cardio type exercise can severely lower Testosterone, as can weight loss. Lower test is correlated with aging. Newer study questions this an posits age related damage lowering Test, not the aging itself.
Last edited by Null66; 09-03-13 at 12:23 PM.
09-03-13, 12:19 PM
#105
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"Exercise may be killing you" makes a great headline.
At the same time the Extreme exercise camp started getting some run, I recall seeing another study which shows that the speed of Heart Rate recovery (i.e. how fast your heart rate recovers after intense exercise) is a strong marker of CV disease and overall mortality. (the faster the recovery, the less likely ou are to have CV disease or to die.) See e.g. https://princetonlongevitynews.com/20...rate-recovery/ https://www.cardiology.org/recentpapers/AJCHRR.pdf
One sure fire way to improve your HRR is a lot of intense exercise.
But what turns more eyeballs: " You need to be exercising longer and harder than you are" or "Exercise may be killing you".
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
09-03-13, 12:20 PM
#106
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Wait a gol' danged minute...... are you guys implying that JESUS built my hot rod?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuk62...e_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuk62...e_gdata_player
09-03-13, 12:23 PM
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Husky's can run more than a hundred miles in one day, for days on end.
They've got a VO²max of 240 and a super-trained human barely reaches 100.
There's no way any man can ever keep up with a husky. No way.
09-03-13, 12:37 PM
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The heart scarring she's talking about does not come from low-intensity high volume workouts, but high-intensity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21330616
Some caveats:
1. This study only looked at 12 older athletes, 20 non-athletes and 17 young athletes
2. It looked only at people who were "documented lifelong, competitive endurance veteran athletes" People who compete at sports frequently push their limits beyond what is healthy.
You might want to add in some weight lifting and stretching/yoga to balance your low-impact endurance cycling (which can lead to weaker bones and poor alignment).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21330616
The affected men were, in each case, those who'd trained the longest and hardest. Spending more years exercising strenuously or completing more marathon or ultramarathon races was, in this study, associated with a greater likelihood of heart damage."
1. This study only looked at 12 older athletes, 20 non-athletes and 17 young athletes
2. It looked only at people who were "documented lifelong, competitive endurance veteran athletes" People who compete at sports frequently push their limits beyond what is healthy.
You might want to add in some weight lifting and stretching/yoga to balance your low-impact endurance cycling (which can lead to weaker bones and poor alignment).
09-03-13, 12:43 PM
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I don't see anything in the article that suggests that TDF levels of cycling are beneficial to health or longevity. Yes, we know that people who exercise live longer than those who don't so that isn't news. This study shows that extreme endurance cycling doesn't appear to be bad for the heart as some seem to think based on some other recent observational studies (those studies seem to focus more on running however.) Good genetics are beneficial for success in professional sports but I highly doubt that (broadly speaking) their genetics would protect these TDF riders from damage to their hearts from excessive endurance training.
Last edited by Dunbar; 09-03-13 at 12:49 PM.
09-03-13, 12:43 PM
#111
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It isn't Vo2 Max that allowed us to run down game. It was our ability to SWEAT, and cool ourselves... Where as our game cooled themselves though panting. They just can't dispose of the heat generated by running.
Exactly why high performance motors are liquid cooled, at high power densities / levels air cooling just doesn't cut it!
09-03-13, 01:00 PM
#112
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Only when they don't overwhelm their cooling system. When it is cold.
It isn't Vo2 Max that allowed us to run down game. It was our ability to SWEAT, and cool ourselves... Where as our game cooled themselves though panting. They just can't dispose of the heat generated by running.
Exactly why high performance motors are liquid cooled, at high power densities / levels air cooling just doesn't cut it!
It isn't Vo2 Max that allowed us to run down game. It was our ability to SWEAT, and cool ourselves... Where as our game cooled themselves though panting. They just can't dispose of the heat generated by running.
Exactly why high performance motors are liquid cooled, at high power densities / levels air cooling just doesn't cut it!
Porsche Turbo S (993) is good for 450hp in street trim.
I know Porsche changed to watercooled engines due to the limitations of air cooled, but 1500 hp out of 4.5 liters certainly meets the definition of a high performance engine operating at a high power density.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
09-03-13, 01:18 PM
#113
out walking the earth
to study TDF athletes, draw conclusions based on exercise levels, and ignore that they're doped to the gills is simply freaking poor science and a waste of time, energy and money.
09-03-13, 01:19 PM
#114
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Porsche 917, turbocharged, and tuned for Can Am specs put out 1500 horsepower.
Porsche Turbo S (993) is good for 450hp in street trim.
I know Porsche changed to watercooled engines due to the limitations of air cooled, but 1500 hp out of 4.5 liters certainly meets the definition of a high performance engine operating at a high power density.
Porsche Turbo S (993) is good for 450hp in street trim.
I know Porsche changed to watercooled engines due to the limitations of air cooled, but 1500 hp out of 4.5 liters certainly meets the definition of a high performance engine operating at a high power density.
And how long between rebuilds?
See you and raise you 107,500 hp, but this engine must run, and run, and run...
Might not make high density as in per liter displacement or per pound.
https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/22/w...00-horsepower/
09-03-13, 01:25 PM
#115
Senior Member
Also there are plenty of 2000 hp water cooled cars out there, even some for sale!
and at 2500...
https://www.google.com/search?q=2500...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Some are STREET cars.
But to the point, evaporative cooling via sweat AND via mouth, and lungs is more effective then just mouth and lungs.
and at 2500...
https://www.google.com/search?q=2500...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Some are STREET cars.
But to the point, evaporative cooling via sweat AND via mouth, and lungs is more effective then just mouth and lungs.
09-03-13, 01:44 PM
#116
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Porsche 917, turbocharged, and tuned for Can Am specs put out 1500 horsepower.
Porsche Turbo S (993) is good for 450hp in street trim.
I know Porsche changed to watercooled engines due to the limitations of air cooled, but 1500 hp out of 4.5 liters certainly meets the definition of a high performance engine operating at a high power density.
Porsche Turbo S (993) is good for 450hp in street trim.
I know Porsche changed to watercooled engines due to the limitations of air cooled, but 1500 hp out of 4.5 liters certainly meets the definition of a high performance engine operating at a high power density.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Ha2ZqP-Hnvc
09-03-13, 02:15 PM
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We have to allow competing athletes to run in their own preferred environments, though.
Saying that husky's aren't fast because they aren't adapted to run in hot parts of the world is like saying an iceberg on the north pole isn't huge because it would melt anywhere else.
Let's have a race between a human and a husky (both naked) in both -20°C and +20°C.
We can then take their average distances and speeds to determine the winner.
09-03-13, 02:33 PM
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Good point.
We have to allow competing athletes to run in their own preferred environments, though.
Saying that husky's aren't fast because they aren't adapted to run in hot parts of the world is like saying an iceberg on the north pole isn't huge because it would melt anywhere else.
Let's have a race between a human and a husky (both naked) in both -20°C and +20°C.
We can then take their average distances and speeds to determine the winner.
We have to allow competing athletes to run in their own preferred environments, though.
Saying that husky's aren't fast because they aren't adapted to run in hot parts of the world is like saying an iceberg on the north pole isn't huge because it would melt anywhere else.
Let's have a race between a human and a husky (both naked) in both -20°C and +20°C.
We can then take their average distances and speeds to determine the winner.
09-03-13, 05:44 PM
#119
Senior Member
Good point.
We have to allow competing athletes to run in their own preferred environments, though.
Saying that husky's aren't fast because they aren't adapted to run in hot parts of the world is like saying an iceberg on the north pole isn't huge because it would melt anywhere else.
Let's have a race between a human and a husky (both naked) in both -20°C and +20°C.
We can then take their average distances and speeds to determine the winner.
We have to allow competing athletes to run in their own preferred environments, though.
Saying that husky's aren't fast because they aren't adapted to run in hot parts of the world is like saying an iceberg on the north pole isn't huge because it would melt anywhere else.
Let's have a race between a human and a husky (both naked) in both -20°C and +20°C.
We can then take their average distances and speeds to determine the winner.
09-03-13, 06:10 PM
#120
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All these postings and now I have "The Naked Prey" on my mind. Great movie.
09-03-13, 06:22 PM
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This study shows that extreme endurance cycling doesn't appear to be bad for the heart as some seem to think based on some other recent observational studies (those studies seem to focus more on running however.) Good genetics are beneficial for success in professional sports but I highly doubt that (broadly speaking) their genetics would protect these TDF riders from damage to their hearts from excessive endurance training.
GENETICS VS. TRAINING
I am astounded at the quality of TDF riders. I could have trained from age five with the best trainers in the world, and never get anywhere close to their level of performance. So I wouldn't be surprised that their level of health would protect them from damage from excessive training. But what you or I think doesn't matter, we want science that will tell us the answer. [Remember, I'm not saying that I believe in "chronic cardio," I'm only saying that this study doesn't prove anything -- it doesn't tell us the answer.]
Let's be clear about the health of the two groups the scientists are comparing.
Population 1: TDF athletes
Population 2: Normal person
CORRELATION VS. CAUSATION
Showing a correlation just doesn't say anything about causation. It may suggest some experiments that should be performed, but it's not an endpoint for research. If you don't believe that, check these out:
Do these prove the idea that IE use increases murders, or organic foods cause autism? No.
CHOOSING RESULTS
The author says that chronic cardio is OK because TDF athletes live longer than others. Why wasn't the article entitled:
Study Damps Concerns About Heart Damage From Performance Enhancing Drugs
Tour de France Cyclists Live Longer, Are Less Likely to Die of Heart Ailments
PUTTING IT ANOTHER WAY
Scientist 1: I want to show that healthy, genetically superior people live longer.
Scientist 2: Seems like a silly idea, but how would you determine who is healthy and genetically superior?
Scientist 1: I would choose TDF athletes. If they live longer it would support my theory.
But scientist 1 is just as wrong as the scientists who performed the WSJ-cited research.
OK, rant over.
09-03-13, 06:30 PM
#122
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Cornel Wilde-scary movie!
-20 20 I bet on the Husky
Plus 20 degrees is 68 degrees-these tests were done at 95+ degrees.
The dumping heat advantage would be much less at more reasonable temps
In fact at 20 degrees I would bet on the deer-might bet on the deer at most temps
and Wolves cover lots of ground-hell they might actually use the run your prey to exhaustion technique-
but not many wolves in 100 degree temps
Wasn't it cooler in Africa 250,000 years ago??
3.6 mph-just a walk-
why would we need 8-10 mph 100 degree long distance endurance if this "works" at 3.6 mph (average)?? Seems excessive?
And just how are they killing these deer once they run them down??
If they are spearing it-my guess-obvious question is why didn't they ambush it with a volley of spears-just wait for it to bleed out?
So how do these Kalahari kill them?
-20 20 I bet on the Husky
Plus 20 degrees is 68 degrees-these tests were done at 95+ degrees.
The dumping heat advantage would be much less at more reasonable temps
In fact at 20 degrees I would bet on the deer-might bet on the deer at most temps
and Wolves cover lots of ground-hell they might actually use the run your prey to exhaustion technique-
but not many wolves in 100 degree temps
Wasn't it cooler in Africa 250,000 years ago??
3.6 mph-just a walk-
why would we need 8-10 mph 100 degree long distance endurance if this "works" at 3.6 mph (average)?? Seems excessive?
And just how are they killing these deer once they run them down??
If they are spearing it-my guess-obvious question is why didn't they ambush it with a volley of spears-just wait for it to bleed out?
So how do these Kalahari kill them?
09-03-13, 06:34 PM
#123
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09-03-13, 06:52 PM
#124
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Wait a gol' danged minute...... are you guys implying that JESUS built my hot rod?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuk62...e_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuk62...e_gdata_player
09-03-13, 07:31 PM
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cow....C O W-e i e i oh, dag nabit