Congrats loken. If you don't want history to repeat itself, I strongly encourage you once you receive your new frame to push out the fresh bushings that come in it and epoxy them in place per the Specialized spec. If you don't there is no reason to believe you won't end up in the same place. Low strength epoxy will ensure the bushings don't distort, squirm and creak and end up abrading the carbon shell hole like what happened the first time. Very good news they finally stepped up with a replacement frame.

A side note. Specialized has recently released its new Tarmac SL5 and Specialized has stepped away from their Delrin bushing BB aka their narrow version of PF30. This is big news as Specialized has heavy R&D and they decided that plastic Press Fit BB's are not the way to go on their top level race bikes..too many warranty issues. The SL5 is new so they haven't been apart to the public yet but outwardly it looks like they have gone to industry standard BB30 which they have manufactured in larger numbers with their Pro and Expert level bikes. Until one is taken apart, still unconfirmed if there are snap rings inside but Specialized is placing an alloy sleeve in their new top of the line S-works bikes unlike before.

My bike shop is constantly trying to get me to switch to specialized, seems with good reason too.
I will get the BB sorted as per your instructions and hopefully get a good few years out of the frame.
Ill eventually look at a second bike but thats at least 6-12 months away yet.

You will be fine if you epoxy the bushings in place which give them tremendous support and strength. You will get years of service out of that Foil...Scott makes excellent bikes.
Be sure to post a pic when you get it together.
Cheers.

Will try to get a few pics up once its back.
thank you for all your advice in this thread, very much appreciated.
Looking forward to riding again, gotta start training for a 300k ride later this year

Finally got to pick up my bike today and just got back from a cold and very windy ride (I have some work to do)

Love the new colour of my frame, stands out a bit more and the white sets it off well. Luckily too it shipped with a 25mm offset seat post which I actually needed for proper fit on it.

Ill try to get a few pics up soon

Would love to see it...Congrats! Nothing like getting a new bike.

Hi Loken,


I was just reading about your BB issue and subsequent resolution. I'm glad they took care of you.


I am having the same issue on my Foil premium and I thought the days of loose bb shells were over for me.


Can you give me any advise as to how I should get them to make my frame right?


Thank you,


Adam

Just seen your post Adam and noted there was no reply from Loken. Disappointing after all the interest and help given to him from Campag4life and others from this Forum, on his own problem. Noticed no pics of the finished bike as promised either.... Maybe just an innocent case of not checking his emails?
Anyway...the reason for me jumping in on this thread is that I also have an identical problem on the non drive side BB of my son's 2013 Scott Foil 20. Quite a serious case of wobble though, with 0.3mm of wear on the diameter. The drive side is fine and has to be knocked out to remove. It appears that this is becoming a rather widespread problem with the Foil.
Although my son bought it second hand from the previous owner(a well known British Paralympic no less!), we feel strongly that this is a design problem that should be addressed by Scott and I have started the ball rolling already with a recent phone call to our local Scott dealer. Its going to be a long drawn out battle I know, as I realise that technically the Warranty is only supposed to lie with the original owner only. However, I don't feel that we should be in this position with a relatively expensive bike only 18 months old, regardless of whether we were the second owner or not.
Should we have luck on our side and Scott honour their Warranty with a new frame, I will certainly be taking Campag's advice and epoxy a new bearing in and if I fail in my claim, will also try it on the old frame as I wouldn't have anything to lose. I wont be trying this method however until this is sorted out with Scott as I'm really not so sure it will be a permanent fix with the extent of the wear I have. Also, if I find it hasn't worked, it would complicate matters if I then tried to push for a claim afterwards.

Be interested to know how you got on with yours.

CerveloMad,
If you move forward with epoxy, a couple of tips:
-After years of trying to tame creaking and slipping delrin bushings on their version of PF30...your Foil is a wide shell version of PF30 with smaller bearings...Specialized ended up specing the following Epoxy for their bushings:
SCOTCH-WELD Epoxy Adhesive, Black, 37mL, Duo-Pak - G2499411 at Zoro

It will work just fine and is your best foot forward with one caveat. If you have some clearance to the bushing on one side, perform as follows:

Above is a 20 minute epoxy.

Completely clean the carbon on your BB shell. Use denatured alcohol. Purchase new bushings.

Apply the epoxy to both bushings and shell.

Press in.

Clean up excess residue.

IMPORTANT: within 10 minutes install the crank and set up proper preload. This ensures co-axiality between bore centers such that you get no binding.

Let dry over night.

It shouldn't give you any more trouble. The issue with the Foil is slightly overside BB shell OD which causes the bushing to slip and wear the one side of the BB shell. This is resolved with adhesive. If it doesn't move, it won't wear. Pretty sad that Scott doesn't spec epoxy or suitable Loctite for their bushings from the factory like Specialized finally did.

A last note. Specialized discontinued PF30 for 2015. That says it all. PF30 and the wider Scott equivalent are not a practical BB for the average consumer or bike shop.


Note: if you can find bushings for your Scott with integrated bearings that are captured into the bushing, this is the most robust bushing/bearing subassembly because it removes the opportunity for the bearings to creak within the bushing.

Hope that helps.

Great advice as always Campag4life. All your instructions noted and will be implemented when the time comes. You have certainly been an immense help, thank you. Will post progress as things develop. I will still try the Warranty route, with a slight amount of trepidation, but if you don't ask you don't get as my father used to say!

Glad to help. Because of my background, I see the pitfalls with current BB's and so if I can contribute some advice to help out, I try to do so.
Bike companies are guilty of performing their beta testing on their customers. The evolution of installation practices for integrated BB's is unconscionable and transparent to those close to the industry. Its pretty obvious that the specification of epoxy and Loctite by large companies in the last couple of years is a response to all the customer complaints when bearings were installed without and would creak or work themselves out. So basically bike companies changed their installation practices because their original procedures were flawed. Excessive movement as in the case of the Scott with its smaller press fit bore is likely what results in its wear. A smaller diameter bore has greater stress than a larger PF30. But hard to know why the Foil BB in particular is so vulnerable. It may even be related to the type of carbon or layup...but probably tolerancing as well...or lack of tight BB I.D. tolerance and big side BB I.D. would accelerate wear. Adhesives would negate this...even if slip fit or even a slight clearance. A work in progress basically left to the consumer to sort out. Press fit bearing systems without adhesive with combination of side and vertical loading as in the case of a BB have little chance to be reliable...unless a lower power rider, low mileage bike and tight tolerances.

If you don't get any relief with Scott, don't sweat it. Epoxy and ride it and it will be OK. Keep in mind why using an epoxy bonding agent to keep the bushings in place is effective. Its because it is a natural adjunct and bonding agent to the matrix used in carbon fiber. The binding polymer in carbon fiber is often a thermoset resin such as epoxy, but other thermoset or thermoplastic polymers, such as polyester, vinyl ester or nylon are often used as well. So epoxy naturally bonds to the matrix of carbon fiber and bushings act as a mold of sorts. So when you epoxy plastic bushings in place using the crank as an alignment aid and why critical to install the crank before the epoxy sets up....and then you knock worn bushings out later to replace them, what is left is a nice round hole or line to line mold of the bushing O.D. created by the epoxy. So there is very little downside to a repaired carbon BB with press fit like BB91 or PF30.

Without adhesive, no chance and there will be more Foils with the same problem showing up here.

PS: for those that obtain a new frameset from Scott, or even own a Foil currently, I strongly suggest you adopt Specialized procedure for their narrow PF30 BB used on their flagship S-works bikes which specs the epoxy I referred to above if you want longer life out of your BB. Not doing this will simply let history repeat itself.

Here is a link to the Spesh procedure:
https://service.specialized.com/colla...G0338_revC.pdf

Note: Spesh does NOT spec epoxy for their BB30 because green Loctite #640 is more effective for bonding bearings to alloy bores which are insert molded into the carbon shell unlike their S-works narrow PF30 bikes with virgin carbon 46mm BB shell I.D similar to 42mm OD BB shell used on the Foil.

My local Scott dealer has the frameset now. Scott mentioned that this has been happening on a small scale. This is what I was told, if the non-driveside shell is 42mm or less then they have a fix for it in-house. If it has grown to more than 42mm, they will probably replace the frameset. I believe mine measured out to be 42.39mm, so I hope to receive a new frameset from Scott. This is on a frame over 2 years old.

Campag4life (or others), how would I be able to tell if a BB was epoxy'd in? I recently purchased a 2012 Foil frameset and, though it's my first try with press-fit bearings and hammering them out with a BB tool, it seems both sides are *really* stuck. I'm of course a bit nervous to hammer quite hard, but it doesn't seem like it should be THAT difficult to get the bearings out. Am I wrong? If the BB was inserted with epoxy, do I have any chance of removing it, possibly softening the bond with a hairdryer?

Thanks

Torob,
Don't be worried about hammering out the bushings...epoxied in place or not. If you have the right tool which has fingers which apply force evenly around the circumference of the bushings/bearings, just adequately support the frame and give it a good hard wack. Don't do it with the frame mounted on a bike stand...this won't support the frame properly to adequately apply localized force to the BB. A better approach if the bushings are stubborn is lay the frameset on its side on a piece of carpet. If you want to use heat, a heatgunn will give you more heat to break the bond. Don't get it too hot. You can try a hair dryer. But try it without heat first. Don't knock out the bushings/bearings unless you plan to replace them as hammer force will spoil them.
Let us know how it goes.

Campag, thanks kindly for the advice. I'll give it another go this weekend with a bit more hammertime. Here's the tool I'm using, which sounds like what you've described above: Shimano BB 86 Bottom Bracket Remove Install Tool KIT | eBay

No use for the bearings once popped out, thanks. I'm replacing the installed RaceFace x-type bb (Shimano-compatible) with a GXP press-fit bb for use with a SRAM crank.

Thanks again

Yup...that tool will work. Don't be afraid of a good hard wack with the hammer provide the opposite side of the BB is adequately supported on a surface than won't mar the BB edge.
Do you have a link for the bushing/bearings you are going to use as replacement?

Sure do... more cheapo/budget eBay gear for this beautiful frameset... it deserves a better owner
J L BB90 BB92 BB86 Bottom Bracket FIT Sram GXP Truvativ Shimano FSA Raceface | eBay

I haven't received the new BB yet though.

Thank you! It took a surprising amount of force to get the BB out. But success nonetheless! Thanks again Campag4life.

Your tight fit is the result of no wear which is very good of course. Since you have little or no wear to your BB shell bores, I have a suggestion.
Take a page from Cannondale and spec Loctite #609 . Different Loctite formulas are spec'ed for different materials. #609 is best for delrin/acytel to carbon....what you have. Apply the activator that they spec as shown below. Epoxy is more relevant when you have a bit more clearance which you don't have. As discussed epoxy is a suitable surrogate for carbon replacement due to wear because it bonds so effectively to the carbon matrix which is cousin polymer of epoxy. For a tight fit like you have, Loctite is suitable...Loctite even have formulas for slip and clearance fit also....but works especially nicely for a press or interference fit which doesn't accommodate epoxy as readily because it is more viscous. Basically all that is needed is a 'little' help to keep the bushings in place. With no help aka no adhesive, they are even money to shift and repetitive shifting equals wear over time.

Just a quick update Campag, to let you know that I gave up on my attempted warranty claim for my son's Scott Foil 20 frame due to the wallowing out of the BB shell. It just wasn't worth all the aggro, as I knew I was up against it being the second owner and wasn't getting any real support either from the previous owner. I had a one time reply from her saying that her Team Manager recommended wrapping plumbers tape around the bearing, he does it all the time!! Yeh right.......I went ahead instead as you had kindly advised and used epoxy to secure the new bearing in place and everything went very smoothly. For some reason though, I had great difficulty in trying to purchase the Scotch Weld DP420 here in the UK as you advised, so after long discussions with the Scotch Weld dealer opted for the DP490 Black, which was in stock and immediately available for delivery. Performance was almost exactly the same, but work life was longer at 180 minutes, which meant less of a concern applying, but on the negative side, has a cure time of 7 days as opposed to the 1 day of the DP420. This however was no problem to me personally and quite happy to accept this. Anyway, just thought I would let you know that all your efforts in helping on this Forum does not go unnoticed and taken for granted. I appreciate very much your help and without it I wouldn't have known which way to turn. Thank you once again.
Piccy of the bike attached, with its upgrade to internal Di2 and new Mavic 40c Carbone clinchers(Wheel decals are black gloss..they are yellow from the flash!)

A nice post and good to hear from you CerveloMad. Because of the multitude of Scott BB wear issues, it must be something about the carbon fiber that Scott uses...or the BB hole is oversized from the start which promotes movement from the first pedal stroke of ownership and wear continues from there. As discussed Specialized over the years suffered from lack of good press on their PF30 and related creaking and dissatisfied customers and why ended up spec'ing the epoxy proposed as resolution. For 2015 after several years with the PF30 design not unlike what you have in your wider shell Scott, Spesh ultimately discontinued the virgin carbon shell BB design that has this issue and now just produce common BB30 with insert molded alloy cups which don't have the same tendency or secondary interface to control. With BB30, Loctite the bearings to the alloy cups bonded in the frame when produced and no movement or worries.

The suggestion of plumber's tape simply shows the mentality of people you are dealing with. Disappointing and exposes the worst in company support of its customers. For Scott to concede there is an issue which there clearly is, would open the floodgate of warranty returns or more appropriately a recall which would reduce the companies' profits but the flipside is you likely won't buy another Scott frameset. I wouldn't. With the known specification of epoxy by top selling Specialized for basically the same BB design, its beyond irresponsible that Scott doesn't endorse its bike shops to repair your son's bike with the procedure you ultimately borrowed from Specialized as resolution. Btw, as you likely know, what you performed isn't just a kluge. It will be reliable over time. Let's say you wear another BB out or two or three more. Just knock the bearing/bushings out and the epoxy left that filled the gapping and lack of press will create a pristine hole and then re-epoxy a replacement BB back in place. The shear force which is purely horizontal by knocking out the bushing/bearings will leave a perfect pattern of the mating bushing which is a nice round hole...in effect restoring the BB shell to original condition. This is because acytel bushings used to capture metal bearings is less bonded to the epoxy than the epoxy is to the carbon fiber by virtue of polymer chemistry and surface properties..the latter adhering tenaciously. This procedure can be repeated for the life of the frameset without any downside.

Thank you for coming back and sharing your success.

My pleasure entirely Campag4Life. All your comments filed already for the future!

Just a quick update on the repair to the bottom bracket of my son's Scott Foil with epoxy, almost 2 years ago........pleased to report that all is still well, with absolutely no further movement or creaks since the repair was carried out. To anyone out there with similar bottom bracket problems, just follow the advice from Campag4Life and you wont regret it. He's the man!

Campag4life,
thanks for all you have wrote here. I am having the same problem with my Venge. The shop was looking to get it warrantied out. I don't think they knew about the epoxy, as I don't think they've dealt with this issue before.
I did notice in the paperwork that came with my bike, that it mentions the epoxy, same as the link you posted above. It makes me wonder if they will even think about wanting to warranty it out since they have a viable solution. As it sounds like it worked for the other guy.
I'll let y'all know!

Cool. It should work. Keep in mind, that Specialized narrow version of PF30 that they coined carbon OSBB, now discontinued for obvious reason, was an evolutionary disaster that they tried to make work and then after too many years gave up and went with BB30 which is more robust for the simple reason that alloy is a more effective bearing surface. Carbon has poor abrasion resistance all said, and not a very good bearing surface so if bushings aren't captured with some type of glue and they displace with each pedal stroke, the carbon BB shell can wear. Good news is...if there is a silver lining, is the carbon hole can be filled with epoxy and be suitably strong because it is surrounded by a carbon fiber shell and epoxy itself is strong in compression where it has no place to go. So basically by using epoxy to fill the eccentric void due to wear...epoxy is basically an adjunct to the resin component of carbon fiber...epoxy bonds effectively to the resin matrix comprising carbon fiber.


Please come back and share your results. I am sure you will be fine if you use one of the more contemporary integrated bottom brackets where bearings are captured in bushings...unlike original S-works bikes which used separate delrin bushings and BB30 bearings which were highly unreliable and would create undo wear in the full carbon fiber BB as you report.