Campy Nightmare
02-07-15, 08:31 AM
#51
Senior Member
Captive minds with strong opinions here. Would somebody educate me on the current Campy PowerTorque stuff. Good or bad design? They seem to fit my budget but don't want a headache. Not even sure if they will work in my old threaded BB shells?
Last edited by Fred Smedley; 02-07-15 at 08:34 AM.
02-07-15, 08:37 AM
#52
Square taper died for good reason. I have previously coined PT, the 'ghost of square taper'. Sometimes Campy just can't let go.
A tip is, find a used UT Campy crank on ebay or elsewhere...or even choose another crank. Nothing wrong with running a non Campy crank on your bike with Campy groupset.
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-07-15 at 08:41 AM.
02-07-15, 08:45 AM
#53
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02-07-15, 08:56 AM
#55
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If budget is a concern, Ribble has some great prices on the non-series Shimano cranks that still have the conventional 5 arm spider, and in my opinion, don't look like an octopus raping a squirrel.
02-07-15, 09:13 AM
#56
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That said, this has been a truly epic thread. Even though I only understood like 20%, I oddly still feel satisfied. Love it when a thread can do that.
02-07-15, 12:41 PM
#57
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Oh, I know that, but if it wasn't plainly obvious, I've been trying pretty hard to be an insufferable prick, here. That's kinda what kibitzing is all about; clearly you missed my post where I said that was exactly what I was up to.
02-07-15, 01:15 PM
#58
I am the OP that requested some guidance regarding my UT crank issues. Even though the post quickly degraded into a free for all some 7 months after the original post, I learned about a few design features. BTW, my re-installed UT crank appeared to be holding up without issue before winter set in. I'll be back on the bike for further testing later this year. In addition, the banter between engineers is nothing new to my ears as a retired engineer. 
02-07-15, 07:54 PM
#59
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5 1/2 Hours today for the first real ride with 2015 Campy Super Record, mechanical, with UT.
Verdict:
Everything works perfect.
The shifting is better than my 2000, 10speed Record, a little. It is 11 versus 10 though.
The shifting is good, but still not as precise as my Dura Ace 7700 which is a 9 speed group.
The brakes using Swisstop yellow pads on a set of carbon wheels are phenomenal. Better than anything else I own.
Verdict:
Everything works perfect.
The shifting is better than my 2000, 10speed Record, a little. It is 11 versus 10 though.
The shifting is good, but still not as precise as my Dura Ace 7700 which is a 9 speed group.
The brakes using Swisstop yellow pads on a set of carbon wheels are phenomenal. Better than anything else I own.
Last edited by ColnagoC40; 02-07-15 at 07:59 PM.
02-08-15, 02:04 PM
#60
I'm glad I am stuck in the 90's with my Phil Wood BB and Chorus 8 speed. My sealed bearing Record BB still works after many thousands of miles; I retired it when I went to the Chorus Racing Triple. Did the old BB designs leave that much to be desired? I understand the desire for a stiffer BB area, but it amazes me the myriad of designs that have come out and the problems associated with them.
02-08-15, 04:33 PM
#61
I'm glad I am stuck in the 90's with my Phil Wood BB and Chorus 8 speed. My sealed bearing Record BB still works after many thousands of miles; I retired it when I went to the Chorus Racing Triple. Did the old BB designs leave that much to be desired? I understand the desire for a stiffer BB area, but it amazes me the myriad of designs that have come out and the problems associated with them.
Design optimization sometimes comes with a cost. To decrease weight and increase stiffness, sometimes other aspects of a given design are more challenged, like serviceability or maintenance interval. BB30 bearings are a lot cheaper than replacing your Phil Wood BB but the service interval maybe more frequent. A Ferrari may need a bit more attention than a Chevy to make an analogy...but most will prefer a Ferrari but not all. Also, those with a less than broad perspective tend to look at design aspects in isolation. A modern bike isn't just a BB...its got very stiff chain stays in part due to that BB, an integrated head set and many other features that make a modern carbon bike perform better than a bike of yesterday and of course weight. To me, and I have owned a lot of square taper BB's and more and more integrated BB's over time and have worked on a lot if not most different designs..many times when the local bike shop bungles the job, I vastly prefer modern BB's to square taper. But I have the skill to work on them and many don't, the latter being the problem.
02-08-15, 04:51 PM
#62
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To press in two cups, (evaluate the use of Loctite if you have a *****ty frame) lightly lubricate a few areas, slide in the drive side crank, click in a spring, then slide in the non-drive side and tighten a bolt to a torque between 40-60NM, you need minimum a Masters in Engineering. To figure out why Campy decided to change the bolt to left hand thread, only on the Super Record, but left it the same right hand thread on all the other groups, you need at least a PhD.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
Last edited by ColnagoC40; 02-08-15 at 05:04 PM.
02-08-15, 06:22 PM
#63
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I'm glad I am stuck in the 90's with my Phil Wood BB and Chorus 8 speed. My sealed bearing Record BB still works after many thousands of miles; I retired it when I went to the Chorus Racing Triple. Did the old BB designs leave that much to be desired? I understand the desire for a stiffer BB area, but it amazes me the myriad of designs that have come out and the problems associated with them.
)-in BB bearings. don't care for the requisite wide Q-factor though.
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 02-08-15 at 06:32 PM.
02-08-15, 06:53 PM
#64
Senior Member
I have a Madone with BB90 bottom bracket. I haven't been impressed with the ability for the system to resist weather contamination. Last year, I went through 4 sets of bearings. I now have it greased every 6-8 weeks and have stuck with hybrid bearings and that seems to have helped.
02-08-15, 09:25 PM
#65
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I have a Ph.D in BFD, though admittedly being recommended a piece of paper to prevent marring the finish when pulling a Campy PT crank leg is pretty cheesy.
Why they spent time making a $300 chainbreaker and 0 time making an expensive crank arm puller is beyond me. Talk about leaving money on the table.
Why they spent time making a $300 chainbreaker and 0 time making an expensive crank arm puller is beyond me. Talk about leaving money on the table.
02-08-15, 10:26 PM
#66
To press in two cups, (evaluate the use of Loctite if you have a *****ty frame) lightly lubricate a few areas, slide in the drive side crank, click in a spring, then slide in the non-drive side and tighten a bolt to a torque between 40-60NM, you need minimum a Masters in Engineering. To figure out why Campy decided to change the bolt to left hand thread, only on the Super Record, but left it the same right hand thread on all the other groups, you need at least a PhD.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
I am pretty sure I am the only one on the forum who knows why which of course does fit with my background and not yours. If someone else on the forum does even have a good guess and they are right, they would have my respect but this likely would come from an engineer and there are a few on this forum. Without contacting Campy's tech department, you wouldn't even have a guess. They might not even tell you. If you asked 10 bike mechanics that work on Campy they wouldn't know either. Even if I gave you a strong hint why. Even two hints. So I will leave you to your cluelessness which has permeated every post you have made. Sad.
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-08-15 at 10:38 PM.
02-09-15, 02:27 AM
#67
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To press in two cups, (evaluate the use of Loctite if you have a *****ty frame) lightly lubricate a few areas, slide in the drive side crank, click in a spring, then slide in the non-drive side and tighten a bolt to a torque between 40-60NM, you need minimum a Masters in Engineering. To figure out why Campy decided to change the bolt to left hand thread, only on the Super Record, but left it the same right hand thread on all the other groups, you need at least a PhD.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
If your frame manufacturer has the BB slightly out of spec, or the faces are not perfectly parallel, you will also need at least 30 years of Engineering Design experience, after completing your PhD.
With the older bikes being like a Chevy , you needed a really good set of legs, the new ones are like a Ferrari, they are so much faster, good legs is no longer a priority.
In bold above...
I am pretty sure I am the only one on the forum who knows why which of course does fit with my background and not yours. If someone else on the forum does even have a good guess and they are right, they would have my respect but this likely would come from an engineer and there are a few on this forum. Without contacting Campy's tech department, you wouldn't even have a guess. They might not even tell you. If you asked 10 bike mechanics that work on Campy they wouldn't know either. Even if I gave you a strong hint why. Even two hints. So I will leave you to your cluelessness which has permeated every post you have made. Sad.
possible it's that the Super Record crank has a titanium spindle and a matching titanium fixing bolt. the Record crank has a steel spindle and a matching steel fixing bolt. and they don't want some boob mixing and matching fixing bolts and spindles made of different materials.
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 02-09-15 at 03:56 AM.
02-09-15, 05:00 AM
#68
you couldn't make this stuff up.
possible it's that the Super Record crank has a titanium spindle and a matching titanium fixing bolt. the Record crank has a steel spindle and a matching steel fixing bolt. and they don't want some boob mixing and matching fixing bolts and spindles made of different materials.
possible it's that the Super Record crank has a titanium spindle and a matching titanium fixing bolt. the Record crank has a steel spindle and a matching steel fixing bolt. and they don't want some boob mixing and matching fixing bolts and spindles made of different materials.
But you technically failed. The Record crank does not have a steel spindle. I will help you out further. No UltraTorque crank has a steel spindle.
Don't feel bad. Colnago probably thought the Record crank spindle was made from mercury...lol and of course he would come to the internet condemning Campy for making a crank that was temperature sensitive and then compare it to his 2000 Campy square taper. Of course he wouldn't know why mercury would make a crank temperature sensitive. None the less his fiction writing only gets better.
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-09-15 at 05:12 AM.
02-09-15, 05:23 AM
#69
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you may be disappointed to find out the official campy website chooses not to mention spindle material, as far as i can tell.
i'm surprised you ask why it's problematic to mix and match dissimilar metals being an engineer like yourself, but it may be that they are concerned about electrochemical corrosion (aka galvanic reaction), possibly from the contact of dissimilar metals. additionally, they seem to have some concern about oxidation as they mention it in the assembly manual i read.
but you are right in thinking it could be an aluminum spindle, Mr. Hirth's eponymous joint is often made from alloy.
anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
i'm surprised you ask why it's problematic to mix and match dissimilar metals being an engineer like yourself, but it may be that they are concerned about electrochemical corrosion (aka galvanic reaction), possibly from the contact of dissimilar metals. additionally, they seem to have some concern about oxidation as they mention it in the assembly manual i read.
but you are right in thinking it could be an aluminum spindle, Mr. Hirth's eponymous joint
is often made from alloy. anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
- Hollow left hand arm
- Steel hollow axle
- USB bearings
Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 02-10-15 at 04:56 PM.
02-09-15, 05:49 AM
#70
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yeah, but...
you may be disappointed to find out the official campy website chooses not to mention spindle material, as far as i can tell.
it's surprising you didn't know and had to ask, but it seems that they are concerned about electrochemical corrosion from dissimilar metals and possibly oxidation seeing as how they mention it in the ultra torque maintenance manual.
anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
it's surprising you didn't know and had to ask, but it seems that they are concerned about electrochemical corrosion from dissimilar metals and possibly oxidation seeing as how they mention it in the ultra torque maintenance manual.
anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
- Hollow left hand arm
- Steel hollow axle
- USB bearings
Of course it would have a steel axle. EVERYTHING does.
but what spindle? That's what campag4life done been trying to tell you.
I'm sorry, but I absolutely could not resist.
02-09-15, 05:53 AM
#71
the official campy website chooses not to mention spindle material, as far as i can see. it surprising you didn't know and had to ask, but it seems that they are concerned about electrochemical corrosion and possibly oxidation seeing as how they mention it in the ultra torque maintenance manual.
anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
anyway, here's a blurb from a site that sells them.
Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque Carbon 11Sp Chainset
The completely redesigned crankset represents increased rigidity as well as fresh and cutting edge aesthetics.
The new version uses a 4 arm spider design which makes for one single crankarm for all chainring options thanks to its unified bolt pattern. Gone are the days of having a dedicated bolt pattern for standard chainrings and another for compact rings. No longer will changing from traditional to compact, or vice versa, translate into the obligatory purchase of a completely new crankset. The new bolt pattern allows for all 3 chainring standards 53/39, 52/36 and 50/34 to be built upon the same crankset. Changing between compact and standard is now as easy as changing 8 bolts and two chainrings. While the new 4-arm bolt pattern makes for a much more practical design that offers the cyclist a more versatile component, the Campy Tech Lab was dedicated primarily on increasing performance characteristics.
The new design incorporates a 8 bolt pattern with a spider arm design that not only holds the chainring in place by way of the bolt but also supports the chainring and in doing so, increases system rigidity. In addition to completely redesigning the spider, Campagnolo engineers dedicated a great deal of energy towards a completely new crankarm that is a great deal stiffer than previous versions. Add this new highly rigid crankarm to the new four-arm spider design and you have a complete crankset that not only excels at transferring power more than any previous version but one that is also more versatile with respect to gearing.
Features:
- Hollow left hand arm
- Steel hollow axle
- USB bearings
Galvanic corrosion is indeed the concern. The hirth joint union is considered safety critical. Campy puts a LH thread on its SR to prevent using a steel fixed bolt with Ti spindle which could be crucial to long term safety. Btw, the current center bolt is steel but all pre-2015 UltraTorque spindles are Aluminum. If your quote is accurate for 2015 for the new 4 arm UT crank and I have no reason to doubt it, sounds as though Campy went to a steel spindle for 2015. This is quite surprising but apparently with Campy's FEA was able to reduce volume of steel with thinner wall section based upon the higher yield strength of steel versus Al. Still surprising in an industry of large diameter Aluminum spindles.Some may wonder what mistake proofing something like this is called in engineering parlance.
For those interested and a very common practice to prevent failure:
Poka-yoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-09-15 at 07:28 AM.
02-09-15, 08:58 AM
#74
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Very good Huey. You go to the front of the class. Galvanic corrosion is indeed the concern. The hirth joint union is considered safety critical. Campy puts a LH thread on its SR to prevent using a steel fixed bolt with Ti spindle which could be crucial to long term safety. Btw, the current center bolt is steel but all pre-2015 UltraTorque spindles are Aluminum. If your quote is accurate for 2015 for the new 4 arm UT crank and I have no reason to doubt it, sounds as though Campy went to a steel spindle for 2015. This is quite surprising but apparently with Campy's FEA was able to reduce volume of steel with thinner wall section based upon the higher yield strength of steel versus Al. Still surprising in an industry of large diameter Aluminum spindles.
Some may wonder what mistake proofing something like this is called in engineering parlance.
For those interested and a very common practice to prevent failure:
Poka-yoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Galvanic corrosion is indeed the concern. The hirth joint union is considered safety critical. Campy puts a LH thread on its SR to prevent using a steel fixed bolt with Ti spindle which could be crucial to long term safety. Btw, the current center bolt is steel but all pre-2015 UltraTorque spindles are Aluminum. If your quote is accurate for 2015 for the new 4 arm UT crank and I have no reason to doubt it, sounds as though Campy went to a steel spindle for 2015. This is quite surprising but apparently with Campy's FEA was able to reduce volume of steel with thinner wall section based upon the higher yield strength of steel versus Al. Still surprising in an industry of large diameter Aluminum spindles.Some may wonder what mistake proofing something like this is called in engineering parlance.
For those interested and a very common practice to prevent failure:
Poka-yoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This has really provided some great entertainment, so I am not about to spill the beans.
Could it be that the PhD is missing, or could it be that you are getting bored at a design desk after all these years without being able to progress to something bigger?
Last edited by ColnagoC40; 02-09-15 at 10:11 AM.
02-09-15, 10:15 AM
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I can't believe how big a step back that power torque design is from Ultra Torque. I have some 2007 or 2008 Veloce that's skeleton brakes and ultra torque--unless the shifting's dramatically improved I'd take that over current Veloce.
The ultra torque stuff is dead easy to service, works really well, and doesn't require any special tools. Great great design.
The ultra torque stuff is dead easy to service, works really well, and doesn't require any special tools. Great great design.
