Wheels: Is lighter weight advantageous, or not really noticeable?
07-29-14, 08:42 PM
#76
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I'm just going to copy/paste my thoughts from the last time this came up -
I've said it before in other wheel weight pissing contest threads, but I'll say it again because I'm stubborn and stupid - I trust that my perception (and that of others) that wheel weight makes a significant difference is correct... but I don't necessarily disagree with the naysayers that like the plop up graphs and equations showing that there's a very small difference in energy needed to accelerate rims of differing weights.
I think that I can stand with a foot in each camp because I think that the differences that we're feeling have more to do with centrifugal forces than linear acceleration. I know that when I'm really trying to jump, my bike gets lashed back and forth pretty good, leaning from one side to the other in quick succession. I also know from my extensive wheel building (4 wheels - woooo!) that if I spin a wheel while holding on to the axles, those sum*****es act like gyroscopes and don't take too kindly to changes in orientation. My theory is that heavier rims are more resistant to changes in orientation than lighter rim and that's the difference we're feeling when really jumping on a hard effort - we're feeling that the bike wants to stand upright and that it takes more effort be leaned over, which translates to feeling sluggish.
Have I done the math? **** no. Do I care to? **** no, but if you feel like it, by all means.
I think that I can stand with a foot in each camp because I think that the differences that we're feeling have more to do with centrifugal forces than linear acceleration. I know that when I'm really trying to jump, my bike gets lashed back and forth pretty good, leaning from one side to the other in quick succession. I also know from my extensive wheel building (4 wheels - woooo!) that if I spin a wheel while holding on to the axles, those sum*****es act like gyroscopes and don't take too kindly to changes in orientation. My theory is that heavier rims are more resistant to changes in orientation than lighter rim and that's the difference we're feeling when really jumping on a hard effort - we're feeling that the bike wants to stand upright and that it takes more effort be leaned over, which translates to feeling sluggish.
Have I done the math? **** no. Do I care to? **** no, but if you feel like it, by all means.
07-29-14, 09:09 PM
#77
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It's more the quality of the build than how much it weighs, is it not? Just because a set of wheels total to 1,300 grams doesn't mean they ride better than a 1,700 gram set? And the quality of the tires you use also play a big role; again, not just how narrow, but the quality of the tire itself.
07-29-14, 09:12 PM
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I believe you have earned it. It is your attitude that shaped you so well.
At 6'1 and 174 lbs. with a 31-32 waist and arms thinner than I'd prefer, I'm already as light as an amateur cyclist probably should be without looking sick. My wife has explicitly requested that I STOP losing so much weight. So at this point, any weight that I'm going to lose will have to be the bike and not me.
07-29-14, 10:35 PM
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It's more the quality of the build than how much it weighs, is it not? Just because a set of wheels total to 1,300 grams doesn't mean they ride better than a 1,700 gram set? And the quality of the tires you use also play a big role; again, not just how narrow, but the quality of the tire itself.
07-29-14, 10:56 PM
#80
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It's more the quality of the build than how much it weighs, is it not? Just because a set of wheels total to 1,300 grams doesn't mean they ride better than a 1,700 gram set? And the quality of the tires you use also play a big role; again, not just how narrow, but the quality of the tire itself.
I've heard some good things about the Ksyrium wheels, although they're not a big jump from what I have. Even looked into the 38mm Far Sports wheels, as they're light and cheap, but I don't see them holding up to tens of thousands of training miles and still rolling like a champ years later. What I need is a solid all-around wheelset. I'm hoping to do some road racing in the next year or so, but my budget won't allow for a training set and a racing set. Like I said, I don't feel that the lack of some carbon tubulars that all racers think they need is really going to hold me back. Something that spins well, and I'll find a way to make up the rest. Suggestions?
07-30-14, 07:10 AM
#81
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I've said it before in other wheel weight pissing contest threads, but I'll say it again because I'm stubborn and stupid - I trust that my perception (and that of others) that wheel weight makes a significant difference is correct... but I don't necessarily disagree with the naysayers that like the plop up graphs and equations showing that there's a very small difference in energy needed to accelerate rims of differing weights.
I think that I can stand with a foot in each camp because I think that the differences that we're feeling have more to do with centrifugal forces than linear acceleration. I know that when I'm really trying to jump, my bike gets lashed back and forth pretty good, leaning from one side to the other in quick succession. I also know from my extensive wheel building (4 wheels - woooo!) that if I spin a wheel while holding on to the axles, those sum*****es act like gyroscopes and don't take too kindly to changes in orientation. My theory is that heavier rims are more resistant to changes in orientation than lighter rim and that's the difference we're feeling when really jumping on a hard effort - we're feeling that the bike wants to stand upright and that it takes more effort be leaned over, which translates to feeling sluggish.
Have I done the math? **** no. Do I care to? **** no, but if you feel like it, by all means.
I think that I can stand with a foot in each camp because I think that the differences that we're feeling have more to do with centrifugal forces than linear acceleration. I know that when I'm really trying to jump, my bike gets lashed back and forth pretty good, leaning from one side to the other in quick succession. I also know from my extensive wheel building (4 wheels - woooo!) that if I spin a wheel while holding on to the axles, those sum*****es act like gyroscopes and don't take too kindly to changes in orientation. My theory is that heavier rims are more resistant to changes in orientation than lighter rim and that's the difference we're feeling when really jumping on a hard effort - we're feeling that the bike wants to stand upright and that it takes more effort be leaned over, which translates to feeling sluggish.
Have I done the math? **** no. Do I care to? **** no, but if you feel like it, by all means.
07-30-14, 07:35 AM
#82
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Just did a wheel upgrade to my MTB, which I bet is going to be a small, but noticeable advantage.
Bike came with Veulta Pro MTB wheel that weigh around 2200 grams, and WTB Prowler, tubed tires.
Upgraded to IBIS 928 wheels, with Racing Ralphs tubeless tires. Also went to a lighter 1090 cassette, from a 1070.
Actual weight savings was 1457 grams, or over 3lbs.
I was pleasantly surprised given that listed weights would suggest a smaller difference.
My bet is 3lbs will be a small, but noticeable difference.
Bike came with Veulta Pro MTB wheel that weigh around 2200 grams, and WTB Prowler, tubed tires.
Upgraded to IBIS 928 wheels, with Racing Ralphs tubeless tires. Also went to a lighter 1090 cassette, from a 1070.
Actual weight savings was 1457 grams, or over 3lbs.
I was pleasantly surprised given that listed weights would suggest a smaller difference.
My bet is 3lbs will be a small, but noticeable difference.
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07-30-14, 08:42 AM
#83
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Yeah, yeah - whatever. Insert whatever the proper term is for the force that keeps a gyroscope upright (angular momentum?). Geez, the outcome is always surprising when you give a 41er the choice to either examine the merit of the thoughts behind the words or to be a supercilious prick and concentrate lexicon shortcomings.
07-30-14, 08:58 AM
#85
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Yeah, yeah - whatever. Insert whatever the proper term is for the force that keeps a gyroscope upright (angular momentum?). Geez, the outcome is always surprising when you give a 41er the choice to either examine the merit of the thoughts behind the words or to be a supercilious prick and concentrate lexicon shortcomings.
07-30-14, 09:19 AM
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We all notice obvious improvement after upgrading to a high end bike. The problem is how to quantify it. Let's get the best of the best, Cervelo P5, and it claims "...resulting in crucial time savings of ~30 seconds in a 40-kilometre race."
How fast do they go on a time trial? 30mph minimum. 30 seconds is about 1% improvement of the total time.
P5 Triathlon and Time Trial Bike - Cervélo
How much does aerodynamics contribute to the 1%?
How much does better wheels contribute to the 1%?
Let's say half and half, but I really think it is 10:1 or 20:1.
So, better wheels give you 0.5% improvement and if you are at 20mph, it's about 0.1mph.
Can you perceive it as huge improvement? Of course you can and you will. It guarantees you will always beat the old you by a good margin at the end of a 10 miles sprint and it is a decided win by 200 feet. But if you are expecting 1mph, that is just perception.
How fast do they go on a time trial? 30mph minimum. 30 seconds is about 1% improvement of the total time.
P5 Triathlon and Time Trial Bike - Cervélo
How much does aerodynamics contribute to the 1%?
How much does better wheels contribute to the 1%?
Let's say half and half, but I really think it is 10:1 or 20:1.
So, better wheels give you 0.5% improvement and if you are at 20mph, it's about 0.1mph.
Can you perceive it as huge improvement? Of course you can and you will. It guarantees you will always beat the old you by a good margin at the end of a 10 miles sprint and it is a decided win by 200 feet. But if you are expecting 1mph, that is just perception.
07-30-14, 09:28 AM
#87
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No one will disagree with you that light wheels can feel quite different from heavy wheels, but that doesn't translate to the reduction in rotating weight being important. Lighter weight overall, yes, that's meaningful in the same way that reduced weight anywhere is meaningful. But where the weight comes from doesn't matter. What you choose to believe about the physics in play is irrelevant, reality is what matters.
07-30-14, 09:40 AM
#88
Senior Member
Problem is that your perceptions are misleading you, and spinning the wheels in your hands has little to do with how they actually behave on a bicycle. When you're lashing the bike around in a sprint, as you put it, you are not simply tilting them side to side as you would in your hands! They are moving forward, hopefully relatively quickly, so they are actually following an oscillating path. Wheels on a bicycle offer no appreciable resistance to steering input except as a consequence of the front-end geometry, rather than angular momentum.
No one will disagree with you that light wheels can feel quite different from heavy wheels, but that doesn't translate to the reduction in rotating weight being important. Lighter weight overall, yes, that's meaningful in the same way that reduced weight anywhere is meaningful. But where the weight comes from doesn't matter. What you choose to believe about the physics in play is irrelevant, reality is what matters.
No one will disagree with you that light wheels can feel quite different from heavy wheels, but that doesn't translate to the reduction in rotating weight being important. Lighter weight overall, yes, that's meaningful in the same way that reduced weight anywhere is meaningful. But where the weight comes from doesn't matter. What you choose to believe about the physics in play is irrelevant, reality is what matters.
07-30-14, 10:49 AM
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I think the numbers I came up with, 0.1mph, really hurt the feelings. In another way, it can indeed lead to 1mph advantage. So, the way is that you just keep up with the old you saving a couple of watts along the way and explode by 1mph in the last minute and you will win by about 25 meters beautifully.
We all notice obvious improvement after upgrading to a high end bike. The problem is how to quantify it. Let's get the best of the best, Cervelo P5, and it claims "...resulting in crucial time savings of ~30 seconds in a 40-kilometre race."
How fast do they go on a time trial? 30mph minimum. 30 seconds is about 1% improvement of the total time.
P5 Triathlon and Time Trial Bike - Cervélo
How much does aerodynamics contribute to the 1%?
How much does better wheels contribute to the 1%?
Let's say half and half, but I really think it is 10:1 or 20:1.
So, better wheels give you 0.5% improvement and if you are at 20mph, it's about 0.1mph.
Can you perceive it as huge improvement? Of course you can and you will. It guarantees you will always beat the old you by a good margin at the end of a 10 miles sprint and it is a decided win by 200 feet. But if you are expecting 1mph, that is just perception.
How fast do they go on a time trial? 30mph minimum. 30 seconds is about 1% improvement of the total time.
P5 Triathlon and Time Trial Bike - Cervélo
How much does aerodynamics contribute to the 1%?
How much does better wheels contribute to the 1%?
Let's say half and half, but I really think it is 10:1 or 20:1.
So, better wheels give you 0.5% improvement and if you are at 20mph, it's about 0.1mph.
Can you perceive it as huge improvement? Of course you can and you will. It guarantees you will always beat the old you by a good margin at the end of a 10 miles sprint and it is a decided win by 200 feet. But if you are expecting 1mph, that is just perception.
07-30-14, 03:41 PM
#91
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Carbon/Aero wheels are very nice, but a while ago certain things had me rethinking the whole wheel situation. Years ago when carbon wheels weren't even around they rode aluminum wheels in the TdF, correct? Hell, even now some teams use aluminum wheels for the cobbles and rougher areas. Finding a very wellbuilt set of aluminum rims definitely won't hinder someones performance at a noticeable level, although mentally it might. The Bontrager Race X Lite are supposed to be great all-around wheels. And my favorite (because of my size) Mavic CXP22 with Ultegra hubs and DT swiss spokes. They weighed in at 1,900 grams or so but were bomb proof.
Oh, and the Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL (aluminum with carbon fairing) are pretty damn solid wheels as well. Held up some rough riding at 280lbs.
Oh, and the Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL (aluminum with carbon fairing) are pretty damn solid wheels as well. Held up some rough riding at 280lbs.
I won't argue that, however, given that I've only ridden two sets of wheels, ever, I can't really say I have any experience. I'm sure not all hubs are created equal, I've just never ridden a wheel set with "good" hubs.
I've heard some good things about the Ksyrium wheels, although they're not a big jump from what I have. Even looked into the 38mm Far Sports wheels, as they're light and cheap, but I don't see them holding up to tens of thousands of training miles and still rolling like a champ years later. What I need is a solid all-around wheelset. I'm hoping to do some road racing in the next year or so, but my budget won't allow for a training set and a racing set. Like I said, I don't feel that the lack of some carbon tubulars that all racers think they need is really going to hold me back. Something that spins well, and I'll find a way to make up the rest. Suggestions?
I've heard some good things about the Ksyrium wheels, although they're not a big jump from what I have. Even looked into the 38mm Far Sports wheels, as they're light and cheap, but I don't see them holding up to tens of thousands of training miles and still rolling like a champ years later. What I need is a solid all-around wheelset. I'm hoping to do some road racing in the next year or so, but my budget won't allow for a training set and a racing set. Like I said, I don't feel that the lack of some carbon tubulars that all racers think they need is really going to hold me back. Something that spins well, and I'll find a way to make up the rest. Suggestions?
Last edited by Axiom; 07-30-14 at 03:46 PM.
07-30-14, 04:41 PM
#92
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- Tubulars
- Carbon.
That is all.
I have many wheelsets going back decades. Unless I'm simply travelling at sustained speeds, I find a noticable difference between light (<1,300g) and heavy (>1,800g) wheelsets. Even if I am riding an old steel bike, its performance is transformed with a lightweight wheelset. Lower rotating weight is the biggest single improvement one can make to the performance of a bike.
Tubulars and clinchers... there is no overlap in performance. Every one of my tubular wheelsets, including those with ancient alu training rims and 40-year old Campy thread-on hubs are superior to every clincher wheelset that I own, no matter how the latter cost. The term: 'performance clinchers' is an oxymoron.
Carbon is revolutionary. I do not think that the braking will ever be comparible, but it is close. Yes, you can now build carbon clinchers that approach the weights of the older alu tubular wheels. But carbon now allows you to build even lighter and stronger tubular rims. The performance gap has actually widened, since there is less overheating concern with tubulars.
07-30-14, 05:25 PM
#93
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I have many wheelsets going back decades. Unless I'm simply travelling at sustained speeds, I find a noticable difference between light (<1,300g) and heavy (>1,800g) wheelsets. Even if I am riding an old steel bike, its performance is transformed with a lightweight wheelset. Lower rotating weight is the biggest single improvement one can make to the performance of a bike.
Tubulars and clinchers... there is no overlap in performance. Every one of my tubular wheelsets, including those with ancient alu training rims and 40-year old Campy thread-on hubs are superior to every clincher wheelset that I own, no matter how the latter cost. The term: 'performance clinchers' is an oxymoron.
07-31-14, 12:31 AM
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I have many wheelsets going back decades. Unless I'm simply travelling at sustained speeds, I find a noticable difference between light (<1,300g) and heavy (>1,800g) wheelsets. Even if I am riding an old steel bike, its performance is transformed with a lightweight wheelset. Lower rotating weight is the biggest single improvement one can make to the performance of a bike.
Tubulars and clinchers... there is no overlap in performance. Every one of my tubular wheelsets, including those with ancient alu training rims and 40-year old Campy thread-on hubs are superior to every clincher wheelset that I own, no matter how the latter cost. The term: 'performance clinchers' is an oxymoron.
Tubulars and clinchers... there is no overlap in performance. Every one of my tubular wheelsets, including those with ancient alu training rims and 40-year old Campy thread-on hubs are superior to every clincher wheelset that I own, no matter how the latter cost. The term: 'performance clinchers' is an oxymoron.
07-31-14, 01:55 AM
#96
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A good set of lightweight carbon wheels are indeed noticeable, especially on climbs and instant acceleration. I didn't really believe it myself until I put on a pair of tubular Zipp 202s. Even an extended climb of 12% grades aren't as brutal as before, and they go from being something you dread to something you look forward to. That was the biggest difference for me.
Previously I had a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLRs. They were light for clinchers but whenever I ride these wheels they feel like a bag of bricks.
Previously I had a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLRs. They were light for clinchers but whenever I ride these wheels they feel like a bag of bricks.
07-31-14, 10:37 AM
#97
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To me this is way exaggerated. So much better that even the worst tubular wheel is better than the best clincher wheel? That is just plain ridiculous. Especially considering the progress in clincher and especially tubeless tires. You're reaching here, Dave. It just ain't so.
The worst tubulars: mid-range Shimano (Uniglide!) hubs with 36 crappy spokes and some no-name alu rim. Obtained free at a yard sale.
This wheelset is lighter than any of clinchers. 300 gram tubular rims are impossible to duplicate in clinchers.
Clincher rims need two strong structures to hold the bead of the tire in place, and do double-duty as the braking surface. This is the fundamental handicap in the technology. This is why there is no overlap in performance.
07-31-14, 10:47 AM
#98
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And as demonstrated in this years TdF, Tony Martin can ride away from anyone.
07-31-14, 11:24 AM
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07-31-14, 11:29 AM
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