What Computer to buy!?
11-18-14 | 11:45 PM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Hi Kopsis,
As far as I'm aware, display legibility in bright sunlight is a problem regardless whether you use a cycling computer or a smartphone. Certainly some will be better than others but both groups include good and bad. The only really good solution to that (IMHO) would be an e-ink display. Do any cycling computers offer one?
Battery life is an excellent point that I overlooked. I train for distance and ride centuries so this is no trivial matter for me. On my second century this year (2014 Apple Cider Century in Three Oaks, MI), I was approached by a cyclist whose cycle computer battery had just expired. Regretfully, I couldn't help him. If I remember correctly, he was doing either a 50 mile or 75 mile route. His route had joined the 100 mile route that I was close to finishing.
Regardless, whether a dedicated cycling computer or a smartphone is used, the battery life can be important if you are a long-distance cyclist like me. My daily training routes are each 35 miles long and take just under 2 hours.
In my case, I lock my display on rather than off (with the "No Screen Off extended" Android app) because I like to monitor my progress and compare my pace and heart rate to a previous workout while I'm riding. I also like to watch my speed because I often push myself to go faster on the downhills. In addition, I turn my display up to max brightness for a daylight ride but I allow its light sensor to dim it automatically if I ride into shadow. My smartphone's battery is bigger than most. In some respects it needs to be because my phone's display is huge. It can handle a workout with no problem even with the screen turned on the entire time and four radios running continuously (4G, GPS, Wifi, Bluetooth).
But I replaced the stock 3100 mAh battery last year with an after-market one that has twice the capacity (6200 mAh). It requires a special battery cover to accommodate its larger size. I can run an entire century if I'm careful---but it's tight. So I added an external battery/charger with a 15000 mAh capacity. I carry it in a bag behind my seat and it connects via a USB cable that I attach temporarily to my frame when its needed. I use it to trickle charge the battery in the phone during the century ride and it gives me a comfortable margin. But I have to manage it wisely because most smartphones cannot charge the battery as fast it is being drained when four radios are on AND the display is locked on and set to it max brightness, too. So you have to begin trickle charging at the beginning of the century and basically slow the drain.
I don't know if such flexibility is available for most dedicated cycling computers but they are for most smartphones. You rarely need to be limited by the stock battery, regardless of the phone. At the very least, you can connect an external battery via USB like I do on my centuries.
Back to the OP, the primary point that I hoped to make is that a smartphone is a viable alternative to a dedicated cycling computer. For me, it is a superior alternative. And, since most of us have one anyway, it can save money to use it instead of buying another gadget. The OP asked for recommendations on what computer to buy. Even if the OP doesn't have a smartphone now, other readers probably do and may want to consider using it.
Finally, their is one circumstance where I wouldn't use my smartphone. Raiden reminded me of it---heat. If you ride where it gets really hot (I'm originally from Florida) or worse---hot and humid---then I agree with Raiden that an expensive smartphone is not advised. Besides, most smartphones have "smart" charging circuits that monitor the temperature of the battery and reduce their recharge rate when they get hot in order to protect them from overheating. My external battery/charger option wouldn't work under those conditions. And the batteries become less efficient when hot so you probably won't get as much life out of it. If I had to deal with high heat, I'd opt for a cheap cycling computer. But I don't have that problem. I've lived in Michigan for over 25 years and, while it can get hot in the summer here, too, most of my riding is fairly cool. And if it does get hot, I ride early in the morning (often starting before sunrise). Most of our centuries are in the fall when our biggest concern is rain and wind.
You have to pick a solution that will work best for you and your budget.
Kind regards, RoadLight
As far as I'm aware, display legibility in bright sunlight is a problem regardless whether you use a cycling computer or a smartphone. Certainly some will be better than others but both groups include good and bad. The only really good solution to that (IMHO) would be an e-ink display. Do any cycling computers offer one?
Battery life is an excellent point that I overlooked. I train for distance and ride centuries so this is no trivial matter for me. On my second century this year (2014 Apple Cider Century in Three Oaks, MI), I was approached by a cyclist whose cycle computer battery had just expired. Regretfully, I couldn't help him. If I remember correctly, he was doing either a 50 mile or 75 mile route. His route had joined the 100 mile route that I was close to finishing.
Regardless, whether a dedicated cycling computer or a smartphone is used, the battery life can be important if you are a long-distance cyclist like me. My daily training routes are each 35 miles long and take just under 2 hours.
In my case, I lock my display on rather than off (with the "No Screen Off extended" Android app) because I like to monitor my progress and compare my pace and heart rate to a previous workout while I'm riding. I also like to watch my speed because I often push myself to go faster on the downhills. In addition, I turn my display up to max brightness for a daylight ride but I allow its light sensor to dim it automatically if I ride into shadow. My smartphone's battery is bigger than most. In some respects it needs to be because my phone's display is huge. It can handle a workout with no problem even with the screen turned on the entire time and four radios running continuously (4G, GPS, Wifi, Bluetooth).
But I replaced the stock 3100 mAh battery last year with an after-market one that has twice the capacity (6200 mAh). It requires a special battery cover to accommodate its larger size. I can run an entire century if I'm careful---but it's tight. So I added an external battery/charger with a 15000 mAh capacity. I carry it in a bag behind my seat and it connects via a USB cable that I attach temporarily to my frame when its needed. I use it to trickle charge the battery in the phone during the century ride and it gives me a comfortable margin. But I have to manage it wisely because most smartphones cannot charge the battery as fast it is being drained when four radios are on AND the display is locked on and set to it max brightness, too. So you have to begin trickle charging at the beginning of the century and basically slow the drain.
I don't know if such flexibility is available for most dedicated cycling computers but they are for most smartphones. You rarely need to be limited by the stock battery, regardless of the phone. At the very least, you can connect an external battery via USB like I do on my centuries.
Back to the OP, the primary point that I hoped to make is that a smartphone is a viable alternative to a dedicated cycling computer. For me, it is a superior alternative. And, since most of us have one anyway, it can save money to use it instead of buying another gadget. The OP asked for recommendations on what computer to buy. Even if the OP doesn't have a smartphone now, other readers probably do and may want to consider using it.
Finally, their is one circumstance where I wouldn't use my smartphone. Raiden reminded me of it---heat. If you ride where it gets really hot (I'm originally from Florida) or worse---hot and humid---then I agree with Raiden that an expensive smartphone is not advised. Besides, most smartphones have "smart" charging circuits that monitor the temperature of the battery and reduce their recharge rate when they get hot in order to protect them from overheating. My external battery/charger option wouldn't work under those conditions. And the batteries become less efficient when hot so you probably won't get as much life out of it. If I had to deal with high heat, I'd opt for a cheap cycling computer. But I don't have that problem. I've lived in Michigan for over 25 years and, while it can get hot in the summer here, too, most of my riding is fairly cool. And if it does get hot, I ride early in the morning (often starting before sunrise). Most of our centuries are in the fall when our biggest concern is rain and wind.
You have to pick a solution that will work best for you and your budget.
Kind regards, RoadLight
I would go for an Edge 500. It is bullet proof, comes with a mount, not very expensive, has ANT+ and a long battery life. A little more will get an 800 which has proven to be a stable solid peforming device for what it can do. the 510 and 810 seem to be buggy in some aspects.
Last edited by Vicegrip; 11-19-14 at 12:04 AM.
11-19-14 | 12:40 AM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 195
Likes: 4
So you can do all this stuff or get a Edge 500 or 800 series, clip it on the stem and be done. Mind on the ride rather than the gear and future gear such as cadence, HR or power will work with what you have now. I can see where someone that does not ride long rides might want to simply use a phone but for longer rides the made for cycling gps devices seem to be a far better choice to me. My 800 has recorded 180+ mile rides without giving a battery warning as has the 500 I upgraded from. The fully charged phone will be on its last erg after a 150+ mile all day ride and it is not in use much. Considering you can get an Edge 200 for a little over $100 and the 500 is around $300 with cadence and HR I don't think there is a lot of savings after you get the case and handle bar mount, big battery, external power pack and the like for your phone. Add in that cell phones have a short in use life in 18 months or so the phone will end up being turned in for some newer one that the added stuff likely won't work with.
I would go for an Edge 500. It is bullet proof, comes with a mount, not very expensive, has ANT+ and a long battery life. A little more will get an 800 which has proven to be a stable solid peforming device for what it can do. the 510 and 810 seem to be buggy in some aspects.
I would go for an Edge 500. It is bullet proof, comes with a mount, not very expensive, has ANT+ and a long battery life. A little more will get an 800 which has proven to be a stable solid peforming device for what it can do. the 510 and 810 seem to be buggy in some aspects.
My mind is on the ride---not the phone. Here's a cost rundown of the parts I've purchased:
Extended 6200 mAh battery and battery cover: US$23.99
Waterproof case and mount: $26.99
External 15000 mAh battery: $39.70
5-foot USB cable: $5.01
Total: US$95.69
And the nice thing about these things is that they are not dedicated to the bike. They can be used with the smartphone whenever desired. I can go 3 days before I need to charge my phone. The case unlocks from the bike mount and provides convenient waterproof protection with touchscreen support---a great aid when using Google maps outside in the rain. I can use the external battery to charge the phone when I'm away from power.
As for obsolescence, the majority of us keep our phones for more than 18 months---I keep mine for 36 months. And only the extended battery will be obsolete if a I buy a new model phone---and it's irrelevant because a Li-Ion battery is ready to be replaced by then---they seldom last longer than the life of a phone. The case would still work because I would by a similar phone (like the Galaxy Note IV). The external battery would work with a new phone. The USB cable would still work. Let's please not invent problems that don't exist.
If you want to use a dedicated cycling computer---fine! I'm not trying to talk you out of it. But for those readers who are asking similar questions as the OP, I'm offering a choice worth considering if they already own a smartphone. It's versatile.
Kind regards, RoadLight
11-19-14 | 08:27 AM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,337
Likes: 3
From: SoCal
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix Evo 3; 2014 Cannondale Quick 4; 2014 Cannondale Crash 4 hi-mod
Forgive my ignorance if I show it here but, it sounds like the Cateye Stealth 10 is the best bang for the buck, no?
The Edge 200 apparently doesn't update every second, while the Cateye does. And they're both around $100 with the Cateye coming in lower most of the time.So I see that is a clear winner.
Coming from running I have a Forerunner 305 on my wrist. At the time I bought it it was the exact same as the 205 except w/ heart monitor. I've NEVER used HM on my 305. I say, lowest common denominator, FTW!
P.S. And, btw, how do these wireless units measure cadence?? (or is it half @$$ed & not so accurate)
The Edge 200 apparently doesn't update every second, while the Cateye does. And they're both around $100 with the Cateye coming in lower most of the time.So I see that is a clear winner.
Coming from running I have a Forerunner 305 on my wrist. At the time I bought it it was the exact same as the 205 except w/ heart monitor. I've NEVER used HM on my 305. I say, lowest common denominator, FTW!
P.S. And, btw, how do these wireless units measure cadence?? (or is it half @$$ed & not so accurate)
11-19-14 | 08:57 AM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,330
Likes: 2
From: Antioch, IL
Bikes: 2013 Synapse 4
i've been using a garmin 800 now for a couple seasons. truthfully, I rarely look at the damn thing while I'm riding anyway so the display just doesn't matter that much to me. on my primary screen I have 2 things, cadence and heart rate. that's all I need while on the move, everything else I can see after the fact on the upload of the ride. so while I ~kinda~ get roadlight's point, to me its such a non-issue as to not even matter, so take that for what its worth. I like my garmin computer, it has fulfilled my expectations and then some. I use it on the trainer in the winter and I use the data to keep track of miles, calories burned, etc. to me it was worth it. I reckon everyone has to decide that for themselves, color me a fan. but I won't upgrade to the 1000 until the 800 breaks, it just fulfills my needs completely at this time.
11-19-14 | 09:42 AM
#30
Voice of the Industry
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
i've been using a garmin 800 now for a couple seasons. truthfully, I rarely look at the damn thing while I'm riding anyway so the display just doesn't matter that much to me. on my primary screen I have 2 things, cadence and heart rate. that's all I need while on the move, everything else I can see after the fact on the upload of the ride. so while I ~kinda~ get roadlight's point, to me its such a non-issue as to not even matter, so take that for what its worth. I like my garmin computer, it has fulfilled my expectations and then some. I use it on the trainer in the winter and I use the data to keep track of miles, calories burned, etc. to me it was worth it. I reckon everyone has to decide that for themselves, color me a fan. but I won't upgrade to the 1000 until the 800 breaks, it just fulfills my needs completely at this time.
Reason I do is because I ride with different groups who ride different speeds. For example, if I start to ride too fast in the B group while pulling, then I normally hear about it from those behind me...say if pulling 23 mph if there is no head wind. Similarily I need my HR monitor when riding in the A group. On my last group ride my HR started to blow up because there were some very strong guys really laying it down. So I need to see what is going on with both my speed and HR. I also ride with individuals who won't ride or can't ride over a certain speed. One friend, 18 mph is about the limit. Another its 20 mph and another it is 16mph if the wind is calm. I try to respect others with the speed I ride as there are racers I can't stay with either for many miles. To me Cateye makes the best displays but Garmin probably makes the best computers. When Cateye makes that new Padrone with oversize display computer WITH HR, I will buy one to replace my Edge 500. I figure in the next couple of years Garmin or Cateye will smell the coffee and come out with a big display with speed, GPS and HR for aging boomers who can afford it with less than perfect eyes.
Last edited by Campag4life; 11-19-14 at 10:02 AM.
11-19-14 | 09:48 AM
#31
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,330
Likes: 2
From: Antioch, IL
Bikes: 2013 Synapse 4
Counterpoint to what you write is I need to see my speedo display well and I don't with my Edge 500. I find the display quality poor.
Reason I do is because I ride with different groups who ride different speeds. For example, if I start to ride too fast in the B group while pulling, then I normally hear about it from those behind me...say if pulling 23 mph if there is no head wind. Similarily I need my HR monitor when riding in the A group. On my last group ride my HR started to blow up because there were some very strong guys really laying it down. So I need to see what is going on with both my speed and HR. I also ride with individuals who won't ride or can't ride over a certain speed. One friend, 18 mph is about the limit. Another its 20 mph and another it is 16mph if the wind is calm. I try to respect others with the speed I ride as there are racers I can't stay with either for many miles. To me Cateye makes the best displays but Garmin probably makes the best computers. When Cateye makes that new oversize display computer with HR, I will buy one to replace my Edge 500. I figure in the next couple of years Garmin or Cateye will smell the coffee and come out with a big display with speed, GPS and HR for aging boomers who can afford it with less than perfect eyes.
Reason I do is because I ride with different groups who ride different speeds. For example, if I start to ride too fast in the B group while pulling, then I normally hear about it from those behind me...say if pulling 23 mph if there is no head wind. Similarily I need my HR monitor when riding in the A group. On my last group ride my HR started to blow up because there were some very strong guys really laying it down. So I need to see what is going on with both my speed and HR. I also ride with individuals who won't ride or can't ride over a certain speed. One friend, 18 mph is about the limit. Another its 20 mph and another it is 16mph if the wind is calm. I try to respect others with the speed I ride as there are racers I can't stay with either for many miles. To me Cateye makes the best displays but Garmin probably makes the best computers. When Cateye makes that new oversize display computer with HR, I will buy one to replace my Edge 500. I figure in the next couple of years Garmin or Cateye will smell the coffee and come out with a big display with speed, GPS and HR for aging boomers who can afford it with less than perfect eyes.
11-19-14 | 09:56 AM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,247
Likes: 7
From: Northern VA
Bikes: Moots Vamoots, Colnago C60, Santa Cruz Stigmata CC, and too many other bikes I don't ride
Hi Vicegrip,
My mind is on the ride---not the phone. Here's a cost rundown of the parts I've purchased:
Extended 6200 mAh battery and battery cover: US$23.99
Waterproof case and mount: $26.99
External 15000 mAh battery: $39.70
5-foot USB cable: $5.01
Total: US$95.69
And the nice thing about these things is that they are not dedicated to the bike. They can be used with the smartphone whenever desired. I can go 3 days before I need to charge my phone. The case unlocks from the bike mount and provides convenient waterproof protection with touchscreen support---a great aid when using Google maps outside in the rain. I can use the external battery to charge the phone when I'm away from power.
As for obsolescence, the majority of us keep our phones for more than 18 months---I keep mine for 36 months. And only the extended battery will be obsolete if a I buy a new model phone---and it's irrelevant because a Li-Ion battery is ready to be replaced by then---they seldom last longer than the life of a phone. The case would still work because I would by a similar phone (like the Galaxy Note IV). The external battery would work with a new phone. The USB cable would still work. Let's please not invent problems that don't exist.
If you want to use a dedicated cycling computer---fine! I'm not trying to talk you out of it. But for those readers who are asking similar questions as the OP, I'm offering a choice worth considering if they already own a smartphone. It's versatile.
Kind regards, RoadLight
My mind is on the ride---not the phone. Here's a cost rundown of the parts I've purchased:
Extended 6200 mAh battery and battery cover: US$23.99
Waterproof case and mount: $26.99
External 15000 mAh battery: $39.70
5-foot USB cable: $5.01
Total: US$95.69
And the nice thing about these things is that they are not dedicated to the bike. They can be used with the smartphone whenever desired. I can go 3 days before I need to charge my phone. The case unlocks from the bike mount and provides convenient waterproof protection with touchscreen support---a great aid when using Google maps outside in the rain. I can use the external battery to charge the phone when I'm away from power.
As for obsolescence, the majority of us keep our phones for more than 18 months---I keep mine for 36 months. And only the extended battery will be obsolete if a I buy a new model phone---and it's irrelevant because a Li-Ion battery is ready to be replaced by then---they seldom last longer than the life of a phone. The case would still work because I would by a similar phone (like the Galaxy Note IV). The external battery would work with a new phone. The USB cable would still work. Let's please not invent problems that don't exist.
If you want to use a dedicated cycling computer---fine! I'm not trying to talk you out of it. But for those readers who are asking similar questions as the OP, I'm offering a choice worth considering if they already own a smartphone. It's versatile.
Kind regards, RoadLight
11-19-14 | 10:10 AM
#33
Voice of the Industry
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Likes: 8
certainly a fair point. at 46yr old my eyes aint quite what they were even 5-6 yrs ago. putting the display on a k-edge style mount helps me a lot and allows for angle adjustment to reduce glare. I don't ride group rides though, typically I ride solo or maybe a couple of friends, we ride recreational, not 'training' so its not a priority for me to stay on my speed point so precisely. I suspect you're right that one or both of them will improve their weaknesses eventually and maybe that would be a compelling reason for me to upgrade at that time if I ever decide to do the group ride thing, which I would like to try some day, just for fun, but it would be with the "no drop" group
11-19-14 | 10:36 AM
#34
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,330
Likes: 2
From: Antioch, IL
Bikes: 2013 Synapse 4
Without training or pushing yourself, just get the Cateye Padrone. Beautiful large display. If not pushing my heart rate which generally will only occur if trying to keep up with fast guys, then don't need HR or wearing a strap around your body. I actually debate this myself, but I kind of like to know at what level of exertion I am at if riding with riders who are stronger than me. A-group rides can be pretty daunting for this old rider. A couple of guys in the group I occasionally ride with can sustain 300 watts for 1 hour when training. I sure can't and so my HR can start to blow up which happened last ride and so I like to know when I am getting over LTHR which for me is about 175 bpm.
11-19-14 | 03:23 PM
#35
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 1
From: St. Pete, Florida
The Edge 200 apparently doesn't update every second, while the Cateye does. And they're both around $100 with the Cateye coming in lower most of the time.So I see that is a clear winner.
P.S. And, btw, how do these wireless units measure cadence?? (or is it half @$$ed & not so accurate)
Last edited by Kopsis; 11-19-14 at 04:48 PM.
11-19-14 | 05:23 PM
#36
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
From: Central CA
Bikes: A little of everything
Cateye's software at launch was mediocre, but has improved.
I hate Garmin's new software with a passion. I like collecting and looking back at GPS data but have no interest in connecting it with Strava- the new software is geared entirely toward Strava, Facebook, etc.
The Stealth 10 and Edge 200 are not Ant+ compatible and therefore cannot hook up to cadence/heart rate/power devices; you have to step up to the Edge 500 and Stealth 50.
Cadence sensors are as simple as you can get and not inaccurate at all- it just counts the number of times your crank turns.
Also, just in case it's not clear, you can mix and match your Ant+ devices- Cateye, Garmin, whatever, Ant+ is Ant+ regardless of brand name. The Cateye stuff is cheaper and just as good.
I hate Garmin's new software with a passion. I like collecting and looking back at GPS data but have no interest in connecting it with Strava- the new software is geared entirely toward Strava, Facebook, etc.
The Stealth 10 and Edge 200 are not Ant+ compatible and therefore cannot hook up to cadence/heart rate/power devices; you have to step up to the Edge 500 and Stealth 50.
Cadence sensors are as simple as you can get and not inaccurate at all- it just counts the number of times your crank turns.
Also, just in case it's not clear, you can mix and match your Ant+ devices- Cateye, Garmin, whatever, Ant+ is Ant+ regardless of brand name. The Cateye stuff is cheaper and just as good.
11-19-14 | 06:58 PM
#37
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 564
Likes: 2
From: South Carolina
Bikes: 1976 Raleigh,2015 Bianchi Intenso, 2012 Specialized Secteur.
Many people will find that a basic bike computer for real-time speed and distance coupled with a smartphone running a GPS tracker in your jersey pocket with the screen off is an extremely effective solution (especially if you pick software that supports stored map files so you can put the radios in airplane mode). If disposable income is a consideration, I would only suggest moving to a Garmin-type solution (or a bike-mounted optimized smartphone) if you need to add heart rate and/or power meter data for structured training purposes.
11-19-14 | 08:34 PM
#38
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,337
Likes: 3
From: SoCal
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Supersix Evo 3; 2014 Cannondale Quick 4; 2014 Cannondale Crash 4 hi-mod
Much thanks to Kopsis for your in depth explanation! That helps quite a bit. I'm sticking with my Forerunner 305 til it dies. Maybe by then they'll have some of this stuff smoothed out a bit more.
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