Saddle height: it isn't always so straightforward
 

I have three bikes all set up with the same final (fully built) saddle height, stack and reach (right now within 0.5 cm) for the bar tops, hoods and drops. And I have the same brand and model saddle on all three bikes, the Terry Falcon Y. The newest bike build has the nominally newest saddle. Problem is it is that "newest" saddle is actually NOS and is really a few years older than the others. One way to tell is it is still covered in real leather, while that model has featured synthetic covers for quite a while. It feels noticeably stiffer than the later versions of this same model. Yesterday on my first really strenuous outdoor ride on the bike since building it, I started having pain in my glutes and definitely felt like I was reaching for the pedals at the bottom of the stroke. So I dropped it down 5 mm and will try it out as soon as our weather here dries out again.

Has anyone else ever noticed that same or very similar saddles can compress differently and necessitate different nominal heights? I love this saddle but have to admit one reason for standardizing on this model has been to simplify setting the height by referring to my other bikes. I guess that doesn't always work.

Now that I think of it, an old saddle of this same brand/model that I discarded recently due to the cover having worn out was quite curved in the center looking a little like a Spesh Romin rather than a perfectly flat Toupe. I guess they can not only start out differently, but also they can change over time that they are ridden. Good thing that I am retired and have time for all this foolishness.

Saddle shape makes a big difference in setting up bikes equivalently. Simple reason is...we don't sit in the same spot not only vertically but fore/aft on a different saddle. I just replaced an old Toupe saddle on my bike with a new Toupe..same width. Specialized has changed the Toupe saddle shape over the generations...some say for the good and others not so much. I am breaking in the new Toupe and learning to like it. It definitely is different. But I am riding it farther back than my original Toupe. So I ended up removing the 130mm stem and put a 120mm stem on my bike.

So setting up different bikes is tricky if the saddles aren't indentical. Saddles can be shaped differently of course but also can deform differently under load.

Yeah, that's my point. They can look exactly the same and still provide a different final distance from the pedals under load. And the Toupe sub-models all have different amounts of padding, both thickness and stiffness. So they can look very similar, yet react to your weight very differently.

I was just hoping life would be a little simpler. :)

Never is and why all the confusion. ;)

If your riding farther back on the new saddle why would you have simply not slid the new saddle forward to keep the same knee to pedal relationship as well as your reach the same as with your old saddle? I know you understand fit so that's why I am a bit confused.

Chamois shims?

Not sure what you are asking, but no that is not the cause of the observation. At least not in this case.

My wife -- who is infinitely more sensetive, and hence more demanding, about aspects of bike fit than I am -- experiences this a lot: As her saddles age the padding and/or cover compresses slightly, and she needs to compensate by raising the saddle by tiny increments. Just because two saddles are the same make/model doesn't mean they're identical, and a few years' use can make a huge difference in how identical two ostensibly identical saddles are.

Yeah, that seems to be true.

Never had the problem with the 5 Romin EVOs.

Two things: 1) if the saddle changes shape after use, then you just need to measure and set up when they are new (or the same usage), and 2) if they saddle model is the same, but the manufacturer changed the design, then they are NOT the same saddle.

As for 1) yes, but if they continue to sag over time, as Bob Ross says, further adjustments will be needed. Regarding 2), on the Falcon Y the shape appears identical. It must be the density/stiffness of the foam which has changed. You are right about them not being the same, but there isn't anything else that close. I guess "nominally" the same is how it should be described.

If it don't feel right....lower the post. Your legs are telling you that it's not right- so regardless of what the tape measure may say, your body says that there's a difference in that seat.

Ain't it the truth?

A fair question. I can't really explain it however something I considered. The only thing I can determine is my balance on the new Toupe is different because my sit bones are supported differently. But you are correct. Logically it should work that way and it probably would...just feels better with a shorter stem and sitting a bit farther back on the saddle which is located about the same place on its rails compared to the older Toupe.

Why did you replace the stem and not just move the saddle forward on the rails. Your butt is still attached to the same spot on your body isn't it! This just doesn't make sense, you altered your riding position to accommodate a softer Toupe, when you should / could have just moved the saddle forward to accommodate your current riding position.

Oops, garysol1 beat me to it.

We clearly have a need for new technology. First we have a chip/emitter implanted on the pivot of our hips Then another we can locate at the ball of our foot. Then a readout of the total and horizontal distances between. (Better do both hips so no cheating.) Then when we get a bike right, we note the distance. Now it is child's play to set up the next bike. Seat, shoe and cleats are all automatically accounted for. For now, we probably have to use local emitters and receivers, but in 5 years or so we ought to have GPS down to the required accuracy.

In all seriousness, this is what we are striving for: to locate the hips properly about the crank circle. A set number doesn't work when seats change, different shoes/cleats/pedals are used or clothing alters our position. I go by knee bend at the bottom of my pedal stroke. With traditional pedals (and this works fairly well with my other pedals) I sit on the bike barefoot and place my heel on the pedal.. For me, the ideal seat height is when I can either bend my knee or straighten it without rocking my hips. I like my seats lower than many people. It you want higher, wear a slipper or cycling shoe with no heel. Higher still? Try a shoe with a low heel. This approach takes different seats completely out of the equation. When you find a bike/seat that is right, do this test, looking for the shoe/sock combo that hits that spot. Now you can quickly get any seat on any bike to close to perfect. All that is left is compensating for different shoe/cleat/pedals.

Ben

Is no one going to make fun of this? My faith in BF is slipping.

The traditional chamois shims were alright, but the new cad designed Shammyshims© start with the same basic shape as those hemmoroid donuts but using a small scanner,individually scans each sit bone to create perfect oval mini donut shims in 3 diff thicknesses. Colour coded, pink, red and finally thickest in brown.
Been using them for years , especially with my Brooks saddles.

Life can be. Cycling?...not so much.

Apparently there is a joke here, but neither Google nor I know what it is. Anyone want to be less coy and more illuminating?

Ya ya I know it wasn't that good, but hey.

PS to Parker, smartassery aside, yes I have noticed what you mentioned, heck I noticed the small difference even when I got some new bike shorts that had much thicker and firmer padding in them, was probably about 5mm also but I listened to my legs and lowered the seats on my bikes a bit and it felt better.

Yeah, the specific answer is clear. I think the broader lesson is important too. Saddle height has to be kept up with on a constant basis. You can't just set it and forget it. Like you say, different shorts, and also shoes, new pedals, saddle aging or replacement, and I'm sure lots of other stuff all make a difference.

Awww, C'mon now.....are such little piddling differences really of any concern? Our eyes and mind might "see" a few millimeters difference, but I don't believe that our legs would notice, unless our normal position were at one of the extremes, to the point where just a hair's difference starts wrecking our pedaling mechanics- but if our normal positions were at such an extreme, we'd likely be having problems already/need to adapt a better fit to begin with, eh*?

[*= Why am I talking Canadian?]

You are quite possibly the most earnest person I have ever seen.

Lot's of folks disagree with you. I can feel a couple of mm of height difference. Not even pedaling. Just coasting. If a couple of mm low, I feel like I am sitting in a hole.