RubeRad

Hey all,

I'm looking to finish off a build project (CrossCheck commuter/light tourer) and I'm gonna need some wheels. From everything I've read here on BF a properly hand-built & tensioned set of wheels should perform well and be durable and stay true for a very long time (even for Clydes; I'm about 240 right now, and don't expect to ever see the other side of 200 again), so I'd like to get a decent set of wheels that will give a fun ride and last for 50k miles or more, and fit within in an approximately $300/pr budget. FWIW I'm willing to listen to advice, but the wheels I'm thinking of are Mavic Open Pro 32H with 105 hubs and robust spokes, no-nonsense 3-cross lacing. And I've heard good things about different gauge spokes for DS/NDS to accomodate different tension needs. Maybe for funsies, 28H or 26H radial in the front.

Can anybody recommend a wheelbuilder in San Diego they like? Or are you an experienced amateur wheelbuilder in San Diego that might consider a job (with me watching and learning and perhaps even "helping")? Should I just order a pair from Peter White? If anybody is familiar with Ye Olde Bicycle Shoppe, that's my very favoritest place to browse for parts so I would love to support them; I know they build some wheels, but can anybody recommend their work from experience?

FBinNY 

Visit California Bicycle in La Jolla. I'm pretty sure they can accommodate you with a good build.

One suggestion, IMO Open Pros which are rims I like don't handle high static tensions very well (others are free to disagree) so if using them, limit the spoke gauges as follows 2.0/1.8/2.0 DB on the right (or a triple butt 2.3/1.8/2.0 or similar) with a 2.0/1.6/2.0 or similar on the left. The point is to keep the spoke at 1.8mm or thinner on the right side, and use something lighter yet on the left to compensate for the tension differential.

This should serve you well, as I've built wheels using these spokes for tandems going cross country loaded.

If you're nervous going this light you can find a stouter rim, and then use 2.3/2.0 single butted on the right, with 2.0/1.8/2.0 on the left.

You're weight alone shouldn't be the deciding factor, but that and your riding style, and previous experience with wheel survival.

BTW- tell them the Chain-L guy sent you. If La Jolla is too far out of the way, email Hank at Apollo Components. He's a sales rep that covers that area and knows all the players very well.

markg

You have the right idea, but I would go with a 23mm wide rim. Hed C2's are the gold-standard in this type of rim (but pricey), though other similar width rims (H-Plus Son Archetype, Kinlin XC-279) are becoming available. The deeper cross-section rim will make for a stronger wheel, and the 23mm wide rims will work better with 25mm and larger tires that you really should be riding at your weight. I'm 220, and only my TT bike wears 23's - my road bike is pretty much always shod with Conti 4000S's in 700x25.

I am in San Diego, and am I guess an "experienced amateur" (built first wheels 30+ years ago), but I only build wheels every couple years and take a lot of time to make sure it's right.

RubeRad

FB, I should have known you'd have connections in San Diego (and probably within 50mi of any point in the continental 48!) I might just make a pilgrimage out to La Jolla!

RubeRad

markg, I am currently riding the crosscheck, built up using parts from a road bike that I will build up again as the old parts get replaced. The wheels I'm currently using are open sport with fattish tires (32 front, 37 rear), and I planned to stick with these same tires for starters, but maybe eventually settle around 35. (not much point getting a surly if you're going to ride 23mm tires!)

So where in San Diego are you? I'm up in Poway

FBinNY 

Thanks, after 40+ years in the industry I know a fair number of the players.

BTW Mark G. has a vaild point about wider rims. I started with Open Pros because I know them well, and you had mentioned them, but you might do better with a wider rim more suited to wider tires.

I don't know the rims he mentioned, so can't say how I'd match them to spokes, but if they're more than 20% heavier than open pros, consider going with the heavier package I outlined, otherwise the lighter ot triple butt package will serve you well. Whatever you do, resist the temptation to use heavier spokes on the left.

furballi

The reputation of Open Pro (boxed rim) is way overrated. Modern deep V rims are so much stronger in axial and radial loading. My set of Open Pro that I built a few years back cannot come close to the strength of today's Velocity Deep V. The Velocity Chukker is even more durable (24 mm wide rim). This one has a great chance of running 50K miles if you don't wear out the braking surfaces. There is no need to go with double butted spokes if you use Deep V or Chukker. Stick with 2.0 mm SS DT spokes to save some money and add a little axial rigidity to the wheel. Keep the maximum tension high around 300 lbs. Use buttled spokes only when you're stuck with a weaker boxed rim like Open Pro or A719. These softer rims have more radial deflection under peak load.

I like to build them strong and cheap. 36H 105s 3x would be my first choice. Have never seen broken spoke in my +30 years of building wheels. Do not worry about the extra 500 g of mass at the wheels. That's noise compared to the mass of rider and bike.

BTW, the parts will run about $270-$300 unless you can provide your own components. Add at least $100 for labor.

Keep riding the Open Sport wheels till they go out. Then upgrade to Velocity Chukker with +32c tires.

FBinNY 

You're comparing apples and pomegranates. It shouldn't surprise anybody that the Chukker is stronger since it weighs half again as much -- 650gr. vs. 435gr.

It's no achievement to build a strong wheel, the challenge is to build a strong, durable wheel that's also light. Cyclists spend serious dough trying to save weight, so using wheels that are any heavier than necessary is counter productive.

If strength and infinite life were the only goal we'd all be riding heavy wheels as proposed, on heavy bikes weighing 25#s or more. Why bother with Titanium, CF, high alloy steel, when 1010 gas pipe is so much stronger and durable. (hyperbole, but you get the point).

I weigh almost 200#s and do not pamper my equipment, yet I can build and use very light wheels that hold up fine until crash, theft, or brake track wear kills them off. My commuter has low end Mavic 26" rims, built with 1.8mm DB spokes and is still going strong after 20,000 miles of potholes, sewer grates, bad pavement, the occasional stairs and curbs (with care), and some off road use. The rear is near the end of it's brake track life, but otherwise it's been fine.

The trend to heavier wheels is a pet peeve. Every part of bikes has gotten lighter (even chains) yet wheels have gotten heavier, or if not, the only savings have been at the hub.
[h=3][/h]

furballi

Show me the math where saving 500 g of rotating mass (~1.1 lbs) would make any real world difference for a 240 lbs rider. The added weight of Chukker contributes to about 0.7% of the weight of bike and rider. Your strong light wheel with still be at least 30% weaker than my cheap no frill Chukker with 2.0 mm spokes. Chukker has the added benefit of 24 mm width, which would be more suitable for a heavy rider. The Velocity Deep V is not that far behind Chukker in strength, with a published weight of 520 g (a mere 85 g over the lighter rim).

Why would spending less money for a stronger wheel be counterproductive to the user? Physics and real world data show that the additional mass of the heavier rim amounts to "noise" for a heavy, non-world class cyclist. The Open Pro also has a much thinner braking surfaces. Therefore, it will wear out much faster than the Velocity Chukker.

The wheels are the most highly stressed component on a bike. A lighter bike rarely translates to a faster rider. It's all in the MOTOR. Salemen tout weight savings in grams. People who are serious about cycling are more concerned about training the MOTOR. I don't know of any professional racer who could claim that the race was lost due the an extra 215 g at the wheel.

I'm a realist engineer, not a snake oil saleman.

FBinNY 

As I said, it's non-comparable. More strength with more weight isn't a great achievement. I don't challenge that you wheel will be stronger, but it won't be material, since a lighter wheel can also be strong enough to meet the OPs needs and goals, so there's little benefit for the weight penalty. Brake track wear comparisons are nearly meaningless since, this is a rare source of failure in road wheels.

On the economic front, the savings is much smaller than you indicate, since the costs for spokes, hubs and labor are similar, the savings on the rims alone isn't that much in the scheme of things. In any case, since most riders pay serious dough to save weight throughout their bikes, offsetting 500+ grams elsewhere on the bike will cost more than was saved on the rims.

In any case, I don't have a dog in the fight. It's up to the buyer to balance strength, weight & cost, among other considerations and choose whatever he feels will meet his needs and wants.

RubeRad

Well my bike build is only maybe 1/3 done, the Open Sports are only borrowed from the donor road bike for now, I'm looking for the replacement wheels for the crosscheck long term.

RubeRad

I'm not married to Open Pros, it's just that I'm happy with Open Sports right now (even with out-of-spec 32mm and 37mm tires), and Mavic claims that the Open Pro is both lighter and stringer, and they only cost about $10 more, so it seemed a slam dunk.

RubeRad

I'm usually right with you; I'm no weight weenie. But I do believe that if there's one place a rider can benefit from weight savings, it's at the circumference of the wheel, i.e. the rims. And it's not that it will make me a faster rider, its that it will give my ride a more snappy and fun feel.

Also I totally buy SB's concept of The Great Wheel Scam. We should be skimping on rim and majoring in spokes, instead of the current trend to minimize spoke count, which makes the built rim either weaker, or more expensive.

Anyways, looking at for instance White's site, I was interested in the Dyad for being "My favorite touring rim. Best combination of durability and price." I see the Chukker is only $20 more per pair (if those prices are current), but I don't see that I need to pay for extra durability if the Dyad is already "a very tough rim for loaded touring" (not to mention the weight hit, which as you note, should be the least of my concerns, but why take more weight if I don't need to?)

As I browse PW's site more, I'm starting to really want a set of White wheels. I sent him an email with my info, hopefully he can give me some options in my price range. I think it'd be worth stretching a little to get wheels that have a lifetime warranty (not that in San Diego I'd be able to take advantage of it, but the point is in all likelihood I would never need to).

furballi

What real-world gains will the OP see with a lighter wheel except for a lighter wallet? Do you know that the OP is 240 lbs and is not a world-class cyclist? Why pay more money to save 85 g? If this is a contest for strength/weight ratio, then the Velocity Deep V solution will still run away with the prize. You claim "it won't be material", but if the OP hits a pothole with sufficient force just to damage the Open Pro rim, then the Velocity Deep V will escape unharmed due to its greater resistance to axial and radial impact forces.

How can brake track wear be meaningless when you said in post #8 that "light wheels that hold up fine until crash, theft, or brake track wear kills them off"? The OP wanted to the wheels to last 50K miles, so if the Velocity rim's braking surface is thicker, then it will last longer.

The cost of double butted spokes is about 25% more than straight gauge spokes. How's that insignificant/similar when working with 72 spokes? You keep harping about savings a few hundred grams but you have not provided any scientific data that will show any real-world gain with such an approach except for a bigger hit on the pocket book. Again, the increase in weight from the heavier rim is position as low as possible on the bike to minimize the loss of handling and braking.

Most people would rather spend less money for a stronger wheel if there is no real-world gain in performance with the lighter wheel. Again, a wider Chukker rim is better suited for a heavy rider by providing a more rounded contact patch. The ride quality should also improve over a narrower lighter rim.

furballi

I can't dispute words like "more snappy and fun feel" because these are quite subjective observations. As a scientist, I must rely on physics and math to arrive at a logical conclusion. Keep in mind that the OP is 240 lbs and is using +32c tires. Also remember that we are not immune to potholes and accidents on the road. The additional 20-30% safety margin of Deep V could be the difference between a difficult repair and a quick touch up.

My goal is to build cheap strong reliable wheels that can log +20K trouble free miles. I'm not a saleman. Therefore, I have no interest in selling "light strong wheels".

furballi

If you only have a $300 budget, then you can also check out the 36H 105s, 2.0 mm straight DT spokes, and Weinmann DP18 rims. The use of DP18s will save an additional $50-$60. This combo is still much stronger than the Open Pro with butted spokes. Again, some people may claim that this is "non-comparable". In this case, you get stronger wheels that will last longer for less money and suffer no real-world hit in performance. Feel free to PM me if you're in the OC area. I can show you what to look for when it comes to a well-built wheel.

Andrew R Stewart 

As a scientist you know that the testing conditions must remain the same for differing products to be fairly compared. The problem with wheels (and the rest of bike stuff) is that even with the same rider on the same road the results will change from day to day.

We, as you do, offer our experience as guide lines for others with less experience. Our suggestions are only that, suggestions. We know that the wrong line through the corner at the end of one's street will do in a rim but the right line won't, regardless of the wheels make up or age. We can't control which line you "choose" to place your tires on. We can say that the collective experience of many years of servicing wheels for thousands of riders has indicated certain commonalities (not constants).

In the end one makes their own choices and learns from them. I've had many customers who one year were just hard on their wheels and a few years later were getting far better service out of their wheels. Like Francis says, it as much to how you ride as it is what you ride.

Last thing I'll add here is that a heavy/super strong rim means that when it's bent the spokes will have a harder job of straightening it. Remember the knife cuts both ways. This is why i dislike the modern trend of few spokes and strong rims. Andy.

furballi

The ride quality of Open Pro and Open Sport should be similar. Both are weak boxed rims compared to modern deep V rims.

RubeRad

Less sluggish wheels.

Well, I am fairly conscious of those facts, since I am the OP.

Chukker vs Open Pro appear to be virtually the same price (ok, 96c more for an Open Pro rim at PW prices). And I'm also throwing Dyad into the mix, so why pay $20 more to add 140g?

Spokes are approx $1 each, so 25% @ 64 spokes would be an extra $16. I'd rather pay $16 extra for butted spokes, than pay $20 for stronger rims. But again, DB may well be overkill for my needs and straight would be just fine.

RubeRad

OK, Weinmann DP18 is a rim I haven't heard of before. It's good to add that to my vocabulary, I'll keep an eye out. thx. (OC is pretty far though, I hardly ever get out of SD county)

furballi

I don't dispute that a low spoke-count wheel and Deep V are bad combo when it comes to repair. But a 36H Deep V is a joy to work on in case of an accident. A hit that could cause large lateral displacement of an Open Pro rim would only result in a minor wobble on a Deep V rim. Often, all is needed is a minor touch-up to bring the wheel back to spec. Accidents will happen if you ride on the road. This is why you want the strongest wheel available without spending an arm and a leg. The difference is weight is only about 1 lbs low on the bike. I'd rather add 1 lbs at the wheel than 1.5 lbs at the waistline.

furballi

No more than carry an extra water bottle on your bike. If you were to perform a double blind test, there's a good chance that you will have a difficult time spotting the heavier rim because a good portion of the weight is concentrated at the larger tire/tube.

Andrew R Stewart 

One more thing- So much of the public view of product "goodness" is based on what the magazines/forums say. There is a strong biases for lighter weigh/racier stuff to be talked about far more then the utilitarian stuff. So much so that if a shop even suggests a 36* wheel to a club rider they are viewed as wrong. "We all know that more spokes are a mark of a tourist and a slow rider". I will agree with furballi in that a lower cost and heavier rim is often the better choice, but only if combined with a sensible spoke count and build job. But this is such a hard concept for many riders to get behind that it's a tough sell. Part of the problem is that with any fresh wheel the rider will have fewer problems initially. So the club rider gets sold on any of the trendy "component wheels" (low spoke count, high tension, stiff rim, factory made) and has immediately good results. How can you argue that? If the rider, unknowingly, also gets smoother in his riding style then this "event" style of wheel (and only 20 years ago these wheels were TdF stuff) might even last a for a while. Of course the longer lasting or better short term results are seen as because the wheel is fancy and pricey (not new and yet to be stressed). Since the pace to 'upgrade' is getting faster and faster many of these wheels are replaced before they show the same problems that were why they were bought in the first place.

Glad i got this off my chest... Andy.

furballi

I've bought DP18 as low as $27 delivered.

furballi

Amen...SEX SELLS.