genejockey 

I confess I'm curious where you think you're going to go with this, so let's assume for the sake of argument that I agreed.

smd4

Which--again--brings me to my point. The entire subject of this thread is "Why are Modern Bikes So Expensive?" All people can come up with is "Modern bikes are more advanced." And again, my point is that in relative terms...they're not.

PeteHski

I used to crash on terrain I find relatively easy today. Dropper seatposts and more effective suspension and geometry all played a big part for me. Yeah I’m more cautious now too, but I ride the same trails and I’m still setting PRs on them. The bikes are just that much better than they were 20 years ago.

I ski too and skis also improved massively from the 80s and 90s too.

PeteHski

Yeah I made this point earlier. In my career as an engineer it has certainly not been a constant pace.

PeteHski

So what’s your alternative reason?

genejockey 

But you've failed to prove that point. If innovation proceeded at a constant pace, you could argue that. But you appear to agree that the pace is not constant, thus you can't reasonably argue that the degree of advancement is only what you'd expect.

PeteHski

I can’t say that I’ve actually seen much enthusiasm for hookless rims on bike forums. Most people seem to be cautious of them or can’t see any real benefit. There are people who like certain hookless wheel brands, but not specifically because they are hookless.

3alarmer

...as you already know, this forum is full of Luddites. If it's new tech, and the pro's are using them, sign me up.

Atlas Shrugged

It's likely that what's confusing you is that most people in the cycling community are open-minded and adjust their preferences as technology and information comes to light. They're not locked into myths and old wives' tales picked up from hanging around a dusty bike shop or riding with a grizzled old veteran back in the 70s. Nowadays, facts and real information are accessible to anyone.

I recall back in the day we used to debate what was better: DeRosa, Colnago, or heaven forbid a Raleigh. Or the classic argument: Italian or California Masi. Little did we realize at the time they were all effectively the same.

smd4

I did. I didn't agree to that. Wait, wasn't it you that intimated my point would only be valid of the pace of change wasn't linear? And now you're saying that my point would be valid if the pace WAS linear?? YES, yes, it was you!

So which goal post do you want to use? The pace of change is linear, or it isn't?

PeteHski

There are certainly a few very persistent Luddites who are convinced that most, if not all, modern tech is inferior. They come out of the woodwork at every opportunity to deride anything that they perceive to be a threat to their precious icons. I find it all a bit sad to be honest.

3alarmer

Bicycle drivetrain systems

3alarmer

...why is it considered a vermin like attribute ("coming out of the woodwork"), to question your personal preferences, which are clearly the basis for your arguments here, as definitive for what's "good" ? I think maybe you don't understand what I'm deriding, and it's not something I perceive as "a threat to my precious icons". What I'm deriding here is your pseudo religious fervor for things new in the world of bicycles, because you like them, and they get used by the pro peleton. I don't personally think all modern tech is inferior, with regard to bicycles. I just think it's sometimes considerable overkill for most of us.

Feel free to ignore my points about how much anyone really needs to get a good ride and some exercise on a bicycle. I'm used to it by now. Admittedly, I find Strava PR's to be oddly disconcerting.

Here's the obligatory picture of the Bowden Spacelander.


I think that's in error. Clearly not all "bicycle lovers are practical people". Some of them just like the latest and greatest tech to ride around on. And some are trying to hang onto some level of performance as they age, which is every bit as sad as what you envision in the icon business above.

PeteHski

My personal preferences (which you have wrongly assumed only include modern things) really have nothing to do with the Luddite views around here. I also have no idea or interest in what you may be deriding either. I wasn’t even thinking of you as belonging in the Luddite group. To me you come across more as a space cadet trolling character.

genejockey 

Exactly the opposite. You can only know how far something should have moved during an interval if the rate is constant, or at least predictable.

smd4

HA!

OK then. Read my review of the repro Shimano hoods. I think you’re going to be very happy.

3alarmer

...out of curiosity, is there anyone who disagrees with you on this topic who is not a troll ? It's a credit to your own (self)importance here, that there are so many people interested only in pushing your buttons. A vast "hoard of Luddites, coming out of the woodwork", is how you put it.

How do you manage to talk to people in real life, who do not share your views on a topic ? Do they eventually run and hide, when they see you approaching ?

genejockey 

I did! I was going to comment on how nicely the 6207s fit the levers, and how good they look, but I decided to take the Circuit for its 3rd shakedown ride. The Avocet saddle is a big improvement, but I think I need to move it back about 5mm.

PeteHski

I never mentioned any “vast hoard of Luddites”. To my knowledge there are about half a dozen of them at most who regularly pop up around these kind of threads. I wouldn’t say you are one of them either.

PeteHski

It’s rarely a problem in real life because most of my views are not very controversial. For example I tend not to argue that the earth is flat.

PeteHski

This is such a silly question on every level. Firstly I ride an endurance road bike and a trail mountain bike. Neither are optimised for elite competition or races by pros. They are both high performance second-tier recreational bikes aimed at guys who prioritise comfort over all-out speed. They must be pretty effective because I regularly ride all day without any issues. I take full advantage of their comfort and wide gear range. They are quiet, reliable bikes and perform considerably better than bikes I owned previously.

But even if I was riding pro level race bikes I don’t see what relevance my performance would have to pros riding bikes from the past. I have no doubt Eddy Merckx would have left me for dead on his 70s racer, but that doesn’t mean I would want to swap a modern race bike for his old steed.

3alarmer

...and it is this modern high performance that allows you to ride all day ? I'm genuinely interested in this statement, because I have done the same thing on 80's bikes. Obviously I'm missing something in your argument. What am I missing ? I thought your whole point has been that modern high tech goes faster, and does it better ? Am I mistaken in that ?

...once more, and for the last time, I think. I was asking about this in the context of almost all your prior statements, (in this thread and others), about the huge leaps in technology that make these modern wonder machines things of great functional performance, that go faster than the old stuff, and do it better. My own conviction is that you need to be at an upper level of athletic ability and training to take advantage of these performance gains.

Now, I discover to my surprise, that speed is not one of your goals at all. The only reason this came up is because you've spent so much time here (and in other places) touting the nature of the tech improvements that make these bikes superior because of stuff like aero profiles. And every time I've seen a discussion of wheels, you're there with "heavier deep profile rims are faster, thus better."

I feel a great sense of betrayal. Like I've been trolled by a master troll, who strings you along for a while, then doubles back to discard all that was said before.

Mostly, if all you're interested in is riding your bike all day, (endurance) what difference does it make what you do it on ? Gearing that will do the job has been available for many years now, and people have been doing endurance rides since Hector was a pup. Masterful trolling on your part. I salute you. Apparently you're just here to defend technology for its own sake, regardless of whether you use it yourself.

Atlas Shrugged

You are bordering on delusional if you are saying that a current endurance bike such as a S Works Roubaix is not better in every way for the average sporting cyclist than an equivalent 80’s era bike. You continuously pop up outside of C&V and gaslight everyone with these nonsensical circular arguments.

To tie that back to the original premise of this thread those developments were expensive to develop and produce. If you like old stuff or bikes from the 80’s they are readily available on the used market for very reasonable prices which are dropping precipitously, enjoy.

3alarmer

...that you tend not to argue that the earth is flat is a great start. Generalizing it to include all your views is the very problem you exhibit in this thread. A single example would be your statement earlier about how all the C+V curmudgeons are always complaining about proprietary parts on modern bikes. Here it is again:

Somehow, in your mind, this gets twisted into proof of technological progress. I asked later on if someone could make a legitimate case for something like a proprietary integrated headset, or a proprietary seat mast, working better than its non proprietary predecessor. I got crickets. I have no idea why you seem to have better luck in real life. My suspicion is that people who have some experience with disagreeing with you have learned better than to bring it up.

I had a guy next door for years like that. You quickly learn to nod, smile, say, "Good morning," and then make for your front door.

Technological progress...real progress...is not defined by the number of engineers employed designing proprietary parts that work on the same principles, and about as well, as the old ones. And it would be swell if you could back up your statements about this new army of bicycle engineers working for the various manufacturers. I have no idea whether it's true or not, it might very well be. But if all they're doing is continuing to redesign the carbon fiber plastic framed bicycle with a chain drive shifted by derailleurs, I don't see the leap. Maybe a short hop.

tomato coupe

Intentionally misquoting someone reveals your true character.