Klassicbike

Im from Germany and there is quite a growth of E-MTB's here.
I know the industry uses the wrong name but differentiation is needed. Pedelec is a 250W pedal assist only, E-Bike is actually a broader term and also includes throttle E-Bikes. Nowadays everything is just called E-Bike but the ones that have access here are the non throttled bikes only (In Germany limited to 15.5 mph).
They probably do a lot less trail damage than a +bike or a fatbike.
Some of the E-MTB's now weigh in at under 26 pounds (Yes they cost loads).
I don't own any E-Bikes but I have ridden some and rented on for a trail riding bike trip to Mount Fuji Japan. Ive ridden this trail before and could only manage 2 climbs and 2 decents in a day. with the E-MTB I could manage 5 so there are other benefits than being more fun going uphill its also the distance you can cover.
A lot of people actually underestimate the effort needed, I can tell you to have enough distance from your battery you need to ride on low assist setting and it makes it still quite tough to ride for several hours.
Oh and about speed, I was quite a bit quicker on the downhills on the non assist trail bike but of course quite a bit faster on the uphills
The people I see in Germany riding E-MTB's are partially due to the cost factor actually quite experienced mountainbike riders who just want to reach further and do more with their bike.

cruiserhead

Nice perspective, and that is very similar to what I see on the mtb trails here.

You are right, the pedal assist does not mean people will suddenly be blasting around like motorcycles.
Even throttle will use up the battery quite fast.
These are not real world issues, but hypothetical worries that don't happen often in the real world.

slowride454

I can't wait until my local race series has a class for these. Maybe they could eliminate the crankset all together and just provide some stable pegs to make it easier to control. Then they could move the speed control to the handlebars...maybe a twist grip or something. We will need a new sub-forum on here and MTBR to discuss weight reduction and how to increase the power and battery life.

e-bikes
https://www.killacycle.com/
https://www.gizmag.com/lawless-rocket...-record/22584/
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-mx/2013/
https://www.dirtrider.com/features/2014-ktm-freeride-e
https://www.amazon.com/Razor-MX650-Ro.../dp/B000FK7C60

SnowJob

I really don't see the connection between a chairlift and an eMTB... unless of course people want to start riding chairlifts down trails! Anyway, chairlifts are generally operated at private ski areas that become private mtb areas in the summer. Such private trail systems can already allow eMTBs if their management decides to do so. This report and my reaction are linked to whether the (mostly)volunteer IMBA and its branches decide to allow eMTBs on their trails. Also, I speak as a member of my local branch (MORC) with many volunteer hours logged in the last few years.

To answer your age argument: I've been trail riding for about 15 years now, and there are things I will not do now that I would have tried in my 20s. I am not willing to break bones or rough myself up too much because I simply cannot recover as well as I could when I was younger. This is natural. I also realize that sometimes I will need to get off and push my bike over obstacles or up gradients that are simply too steep for me. This is okay.

I know that in America we have a myth about being able to do whatever we want to do, but that is just a falsehood. There are many things older folks should not do. That is apart of aging. Your body does become less able to respond well to injury. Slowing down is both natural and a way for your body to protect itself.

So, yeah, I don't think a "freedom of the trail" argument is okay for eMTBs. At what point does it end? Should we extend this to the point where 70 or 80 year old riders are out on throttle assist eMTBs, keeping pace with kids in their 20s and 30s just because they don't want their old age to slow them down?

corrado33

Trail usage is generally categorized by how much damage a certain activity does to the trail. Traditional motorized vehicles aren't allowed on hiking/biking/horse trails, sometimes quads aren't allowed on dirtbike trails because quads do more damage.

If these e-bikes don't do any more damage than a normal mountain biker, then I think they're fine.

If you're going to restrict weight on mountain bikes, are you saying bigger mountain bikers shouldn't be allowed on the trails? I bike with a 250lb+ person, he's a beast.

RobE30

I agree with you 100%. Half the appeal of trail riding to me is the chance to get away from idiots that are incapable of riding offroad. I encourage and foster new riders frequently but I do not want to deal with some fool on an electric bike going far too fast for their abilities and possibly injuring me or injuring themselves in the process. It only takes one idiot and a good lawyer to get the trails shut down d/t injury.

DMC707

Posting this photo to illustrate a heavy duty bicycle vs. an off road motorcycle.

The 40 pound bicycle is still extremely limited by being built around a bicycle based chassis --- this bike is as heavy duty as it gets (for a bicycle) - but it is still limited in the type of terrain that is easy for the motorcycle ---

I am a novice at the downhill mtb scene, but after a weekend on the slopes , i can say with certainty that a bicycle based chassis is still very limited compared to a motorcycle ---The bicycle - even a heavy duty one like this - is still spindly and weak compared to a motorcycle . The pro's make it look easy , bombing down the mountains with skill and technique most of us don't have.

Im a regular Joe, but can reach the limits of the downhill bike's chassis in pretty short order --- brakes are weak and fade quickly, suspension is good, for a bicycle - but terrain that would be a mild trail ride on the motorcycle is white knuckle on the bicycle

The reason i am using this comparison is in my opinion, if the electric bikes are still based on a bicycle chassis and have bicycle suspension components and the wattage is limited --- then its still a bicycle and the electric features are primarilly meant to assist the rider, not be the prime mover

Being a bicycle based chassis, the bikes are still very terrain limited -- there's a gray area where an electric assist bicycle becomes more motorcycle like ---
I mentioned earlier that if a bike weighs 120 pounds and has 46mm forks , 12" of suspension, etc etc -- then its not a bike anymore - because even if you put pedals on it , you couldnt go many places without the electric motor
A 40-50 pound bicycle with an electric assist motor can still be pedaled if the motor runs out of battery power as well






I'd welcome e bikes on my trails with open arms because as i mentioned in an earlier post -- i dont believe they will have the same impact as 29" wheels did , -- when basically in 3-4 years they had supplanted 26" wheeled bikes completely

--- People are riding the big ballooner fat bikes year round now --- i havent heard anyone complain about excess soil erosion for these things yet --- i think the e-bike is in the same category as a fatbike -- a curiosity and something i would love to try, - but will not replace a conventional bicycle for most of us


So my take --- a bike like the KTM below is an electric motorcycle --- The Cube is most definitely an "electric assist" bicycle - call it a moped if you will --- but this bicycle has no place on motorcycle trails . It would not survive many real trail rides

cruiserhead

good logic and photos, DMC707.
It's clear that people here have a fundamental misunderstanding of ebikes. They are not tearing around like a motorcycle, nor can they.

The majority are pedal assist, which is not going to make a novice rider as fast as a pro racer up the mountains. It just isn't going to happen.
It will simply make it easier for that rider to pedal uphill, instead of fighting every pedal stroke, trying to stay upright.

Re-reading these posts, I get the feeling people think ebikes are as fast as motorcycles and are picturing beginner motorcycle riders crashing. That is totally not the case, and it's really impossible for that to happen with pedal assist ebikes.

I'm a amateur racer cat 2 xc, and even with a throttle ebike, no one cares or notices except that I am going much faster than them uphill. In every other circumstance, it does nothing different except make the rider less tired.
I'll tell you one thing, I'm a much safer rider after 20 miles on the trails with an ebike than I am after a hard training ride on my race bike. The reason is I'm less tired and I don't race the ebike.

The one big thing the ebike does is allow friends to have fun on the trails and enjoy the landscape as a group. It's no longer a death march for the "non-cycling" friends. It's just a nice morning out to reconnect.

One thing is for sure, once people get positive experiences on bikes, they are more likely to keep at it and make bicycles a part of their lives. Barring that, they will at the minimum, have more understanding of bikers on the road- as a motorist.

Rick Imby

I have been an avid mountain biker since the late 80s. I have recently ridden a couple of different ebikes. They are awesome. I have never been able to ride with my girlfriends as they always feel bad that they cannot keep up with me.

I would love to have one for my girlfriend to ride. There are a lot of trails with hills that make it no fun at all unless you are an avid cyclist. These trails and the trails behind them get opened up by ebikes.

If you have never ridden a modern E-bike mountain bike you should try one.

It will open your eyes.

The limitation of wattage for an e-bike is probably the simplest way to limit offroad use. 350 watts of assist will allow anyone to ride with an avid cyclist.

They are a lot of fun...

slowride454

will these e-bikes give me e-balls too? Where I lose my riding buddies is in the single track where I they fly like a scared bunny and I'm like an angry gorilla.

hig4s

I'm disappointed during the picture comparison a KTM e-wasn't used so just to have one for everyone to look at,

Gallo

"I know that in America we have a myth about being able to do whatever we want to do, but that is just a falsehood. There are many things older folks should not do. That is apart of aging. Your body does become less able to respond well to injury. Slowing down is both natural and a way for your body to protect itself. "

Really who left you in charge of ages and activity. Local xpro road racer in his 70s can still hurt 99 percent of the population and still races and coaches. Maybe not what he was but still one hell of a cyclist. Buy using your body and staying in shape it allows one to continue in whatever sport

Your stetement almost makes this 53 year old want to buy an ebike to preserve freedom of choice. But I still climb just fine thank you very much.

Now I would not buy one but have no issues with anyone riding walking galloping on the trail. I do not like to be on the same trail as motorcycles and 4x4. These are not motorcycles yet are not bicycles really either but I do not see them as a danger or a threat. If a guy on one passes me on a climb I could care less Been passed before will be passed again big deal.

Hopefully for most of these ebikers they run out of battery enough times that they realize that suffering is one of the best parts of cycling and ditch the heavy e rig for a real bike

roccobike

A couple of things to add, First, SnowJob, You're CORRECT, but let me add why I agree. Folks in there 70's and 80's don't need to be riding e-bikes on a trail, not just because they might break their bones in a wreck, but because the likelihood of such a wreck is raised substantially because folks at that age just don't have the reflexes to make the fast, complex decisions required during a mountain bike ride. Before someone decides to argue, Chill, I started riding MTBs in my 50s, don't ask how old I am now. The last two years I've felt first hand the impact of the aging process. I have the experience, I'm in better shape now than I was in my 50's and have much better equipment, but I just can't process the data fast enough to go fast on the trails like I used to. I can't imagine someone with electronic assist, with less experience and older trying to ride at the speed of a fast 20 or 30 year old with a bike that weighs more than a quality MTB. Maybe on smooth fire roads this might work, but on a complex, technical single track this is a formula for disaster.
Second, I have very real concern about damage to the trails and the limitations on all mountain bikes if e-bikes are considered a type of mountain bike. Someone posted earlier that these bikes can be limited to 350 watts. That's a great idea if it could be enforced, but it can't and won't. As soon as these bikes hit the market, after market motors will be manufactured. Actually, they're already available, one of the folks I know that has an e-road bike bragged how he upped the power of the bike with a tighter wound motor, and it showed on the road. Imagine a 300 lb, out of shape rider, keeping up with an "A" club level ride....strange. Now imagine these e-mountain bikes with more power and imagine the damage that will be done to the trails. It's difficult enough to get access to trails on federal and state parks. Adding motorized bikes will not help the cause of mountain bikes.

osco53

BUUuuuwhahAHAHAHAHAHAHAaahha PMSL

Now dat rite dar was funnay ~~~~~

70sSanO

All the e-mtb threads here and on MTBR go nowhere except to draw up lines.

If the same amount of effort and relentless dedication were actually spent riding, we probably wouldn't need any pedal assistance.

John