why does 240w not always feel like 240w?
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,044
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1284 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times
in
714 Posts
a subject for another discussion, but cyling is the only strenuous exercise i can do without feeling like ****. the ability to vary effort independently of the road is really great. i do need/use a very wide range of gearing, because i can't or shouldn't go absolutely all out for long. but over the past year my 2-3 hour power has gone up around 20%.
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,044
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1284 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times
in
714 Posts
I've always attributed my "extra" endurance while doing 240w on the flats (relative to 240w climbs, both measured with a PowerTap G3 power meter) being due to the adrenaline that going faster on the flats produces (that's not produced on the climbs), as well as the advantage gained by the cooling effect of going faster on the flats.
#28
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,591
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,969 Times
in
1,405 Posts
beta blocker + ace inhibitor + angiotensin blocker + antiarrythmic (flecainide). pretty much the kitchen sink.
a subject for another discussion, but cyling is the only strenuous exercise i can do without feeling like ****. the ability to vary effort independently of the road is really great. i do need/use a very wide range of gearing, because i can't or shouldn't go absolutely all out for long. but over the past year my 2-3 hour power has gone up around 20%.
a subject for another discussion, but cyling is the only strenuous exercise i can do without feeling like ****. the ability to vary effort independently of the road is really great. i do need/use a very wide range of gearing, because i can't or shouldn't go absolutely all out for long. but over the past year my 2-3 hour power has gone up around 20%.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#29
Le Crocodile
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Barbara Calif.
Posts: 1,873
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 789 Times
in
311 Posts
The watts being discussed here are a measure of a HUMAN output. It is not the wattage provided by a motor. We have these things called "Power Meters" nowadays that measure our body's output (work) using watts as the unit of measure. We can now see exactly what level of force we are applying to the pedals at any given moment.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 1,221
Bikes: '13 Diamondback Hybrid Commuter, '17 Spec Roubaix Di2, '17 Spec Camber 29'er, '19 CDale Topstone Gravel
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 445 Times
in
260 Posts
I'm not saying that going 20 mph on the flats would satisfy an adrenaline junky, but going 20 mph is certainly more exciting (aka adrenaline/endorphin producing) than going 7 mph uphill. And is almost certainly a significant factor is this discussion. Faster = More Adrenaline/Endorphins = More Bloodflow and Pain Suppression = Better Feeling Performance.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinehurst, NC, US
Posts: 1,718
Bikes: 2020 Trek Emonda SL6, 90's Vintage EL-OS Steel Bianchi with 2014 Campy Chorus Upgrade
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 454 Post(s)
Liked 164 Times
in
111 Posts
I ride on rolling terrain so pretty much have no idea what it is like to ride for a mile or two without a couple of very noticeable inclines thrown in there several times. But I honestly believe that the perfect terrain for me to do my best 20 min ftp test would be a steady 3-5% incline. But just like there are no longish/flat places where I ride, there are no long inclines either.
I did spend a week on Sanibel Island a few years ago and had my bike. I remember clearly thinking "wow - this is different".
dave
I did spend a week on Sanibel Island a few years ago and had my bike. I remember clearly thinking "wow - this is different".
dave
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,044
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1284 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times
in
714 Posts
I ride on rolling terrain so pretty much have no idea what it is like to ride for a mile or two without a couple of very noticeable inclines thrown in there several times. But I honestly believe that the perfect terrain for me to do my best 20 min ftp test would be a steady 3-5% incline. But just like there are no longish/flat places where I ride, there are no long inclines either.
I did spend a week on Sanibel Island a few years ago and had my bike. I remember clearly thinking "wow - this is different".
dave
I did spend a week on Sanibel Island a few years ago and had my bike. I remember clearly thinking "wow - this is different".
dave
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4543 Post(s)
Liked 5,050 Times
in
3,118 Posts
here's a real world example. one week apart - no meaningful change in fitness or weather. the grade is a little less (and slightly variable) than my hypothetical, but the average power and heart rate for these two 12 minute efforts is virtually dead on. both were during a 1.5-2 hr ride after a day of rest. slightly higher rate for the laps is because of slightly longer interval since i took morning meds, which slow HR down from what you'd "naturally" expect it to be. if someone told me i had to continue the effort on the left for 7 more intervals, for a total climb of 4,000 feet, i'd go home. the effort on the right i know i could continue for at least 8 hours with steady intake of food and fluid.
#34
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,152
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1355 Post(s)
Liked 2,501 Times
in
1,468 Posts
Here is an article about why some cyclists are better at climbing verus time trialing and vice versa. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/clim...-are-affected/
When I lived in NorCal, I would do my FTP test on Kings Mountain versus the Canada Road time trial course. I generated more power climbing.
When I lived in NorCal, I would do my FTP test on Kings Mountain versus the Canada Road time trial course. I generated more power climbing.
#35
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
Here is an article about why some cyclists are better at climbing verus time trialing and vice versa. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/clim...-are-affected/
When I lived in NorCal, I would do my FTP test on Kings Mountain versus the Canada Road time trial course. I generated more power climbing.
When I lived in NorCal, I would do my FTP test on Kings Mountain versus the Canada Road time trial course. I generated more power climbing.
This below means he doesn't understand in the article how hip angle affects power output between the two riding positions and also probably hasn't trained for the TT bike that much for there to be THAT big a difference. That's pretty rudimentary stuff. Even road for road bike, climbing you're likely more upright on the bar tops with more open hip angle than chewing bar tape on the flats on a road bike going 25+ mph.
"For example, when I climb I can hold a consistent 400 watts for 15 minutes. I can’t do this when I’m on a TT bike though — I can only manage about 330 watts for 15 minutes. It’s not just me – my mates and I have always debated about why this might be the case and to be honest, none of us really knows."
Likes For burnthesheep:
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4543 Post(s)
Liked 5,050 Times
in
3,118 Posts
I tried to read that, and despite a few good tidbits some was word salad.
This below means he doesn't understand in the article how hip angle affects power output between the two riding positions and also probably hasn't trained for the TT bike that much for there to be THAT big a difference. That's pretty rudimentary stuff. Even road for road bike, climbing you're likely more upright on the bar tops with more open hip angle than chewing bar tape on the flats on a road bike going 25+ mph.
"For example, when I climb I can hold a consistent 400 watts for 15 minutes. I can’t do this when I’m on a TT bike though — I can only manage about 330 watts for 15 minutes. It’s not just me – my mates and I have always debated about why this might be the case and to be honest, none of us really knows."
This below means he doesn't understand in the article how hip angle affects power output between the two riding positions and also probably hasn't trained for the TT bike that much for there to be THAT big a difference. That's pretty rudimentary stuff. Even road for road bike, climbing you're likely more upright on the bar tops with more open hip angle than chewing bar tape on the flats on a road bike going 25+ mph.
"For example, when I climb I can hold a consistent 400 watts for 15 minutes. I can’t do this when I’m on a TT bike though — I can only manage about 330 watts for 15 minutes. It’s not just me – my mates and I have always debated about why this might be the case and to be honest, none of us really knows."
In reality my preferred cadence when climbing is significantly lower than when riding hard on the flat. I will tend to aim for around 85-90 rpm on the flat at threshold power vs 75-80 rpm on a climb. I presume that must be due to differences in muscle recruitment as the article was alluding to. I basically find it harder to spin on a climb even when I'm not gear limited. Of course when it gets super-steep, cadence simply becomes a function of my power limitations!
Likes For PeteHski:
#37
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,591
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,969 Times
in
1,405 Posts
For sure I lose power when riding in a more aero position. It's definitely a compromise for me. The article was interesting, but got unnecessarily bogged down with the concept of kinetic energy. Could have simply said that the rider on the flat has more momentum.
In reality my preferred cadence when climbing is significantly lower than when riding hard on the flat. I will tend to aim for around 85-90 rpm on the flat at threshold power vs 75-80 rpm on a climb. I presume that must be due to differences in muscle recruitment as the article was alluding to. I basically find it harder to spin on a climb even when I'm not gear limited. Of course when it gets super-steep, cadence simply becomes a function of my power limitations!
In reality my preferred cadence when climbing is significantly lower than when riding hard on the flat. I will tend to aim for around 85-90 rpm on the flat at threshold power vs 75-80 rpm on a climb. I presume that must be due to differences in muscle recruitment as the article was alluding to. I basically find it harder to spin on a climb even when I'm not gear limited. Of course when it gets super-steep, cadence simply becomes a function of my power limitations!
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#38
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
Cadence change is about crank inertial load, the affect of which is to change muscle recruitment, which changes because while climbing, pedal force becomes more spread out and thus cadence will be lower for the same power. We have to bring the pedal over the top. On the flat, inertia can help us do that, but not so much on a steep climb.
#39
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,210
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6320 Post(s)
Liked 4,910 Times
in
3,384 Posts
I was thinking about this statement when I rode the other day. I think it might depend on how you get more aero. And partly I think that must be a fit issue.
When I'm on the hoods in my normal position, then get more aero while still staying on the hoods, then I can't put out as much power either as I could in my normal position when on the hoods. But when I go to the drops and get more aero, then my arms are in a better position to resist the upward force of putting more power into the pedals and therefore more power goes into the pedals and moving the bike.
I haven't had my PM long enough to really say, but I have for a long time noticed that almost all of my personal KOM's for climbing hill segments are while I'm in the drops and very aero. I'd think I'm putting more power out for them and it's not just the aero benefit alone getting me the good time to climb.
When I'm on the hoods in my normal position, then get more aero while still staying on the hoods, then I can't put out as much power either as I could in my normal position when on the hoods. But when I go to the drops and get more aero, then my arms are in a better position to resist the upward force of putting more power into the pedals and therefore more power goes into the pedals and moving the bike.
I haven't had my PM long enough to really say, but I have for a long time noticed that almost all of my personal KOM's for climbing hill segments are while I'm in the drops and very aero. I'd think I'm putting more power out for them and it's not just the aero benefit alone getting me the good time to climb.
Likes For Iride01:
#40
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,591
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,969 Times
in
1,405 Posts
To try to add something to this, I personally feel your airspeed and current power output matter with the inertia part on the flats. It's a lot easier if you've got a false flat downhill putting out 150w at 20mph than it is on the pan flats with an airspeed of 28 or 30mph in a time trial. If you're not "on top of the gear" at those air speeds, no amount of inertia from riding the flats will help as the wind turns into your mountain instead of it being an actual mountain. Just thinking out loud.
Gotta be as you say, on top of the gear.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4543 Post(s)
Liked 5,050 Times
in
3,118 Posts
I was thinking about this statement when I rode the other day. I think it might depend on how you get more aero. And partly I think that must be a fit issue.
When I'm on the hoods in my normal position, then get more aero while still staying on the hoods, then I can't put out as much power either as I could in my normal position when on the hoods. But when I go to the drops and get more aero, then my arms are in a better position to resist the upward force of putting more power into the pedals and therefore more power goes into the pedals and moving the bike.
I haven't had my PM long enough to really say, but I have for a long time noticed that almost all of my personal KOM's for climbing hill segments are while I'm in the drops and very aero. I'd think I'm putting more power out for them and it's not just the aero benefit alone getting me the good time to climb.
When I'm on the hoods in my normal position, then get more aero while still staying on the hoods, then I can't put out as much power either as I could in my normal position when on the hoods. But when I go to the drops and get more aero, then my arms are in a better position to resist the upward force of putting more power into the pedals and therefore more power goes into the pedals and moving the bike.
I haven't had my PM long enough to really say, but I have for a long time noticed that almost all of my personal KOM's for climbing hill segments are while I'm in the drops and very aero. I'd think I'm putting more power out for them and it's not just the aero benefit alone getting me the good time to climb.
#42
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,210
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6320 Post(s)
Liked 4,910 Times
in
3,384 Posts
I was referring more to my ability to put out sustainable aerobic power rather than a maximal effort. If I'm riding along in the drops or with bent elbows on the hoods I simply can't breathe as well as I can sat more upright in a climbing position. Also the more closed hip angle changes my pedalling dynamics. The simple fact that I spend far more time climbing than riding on the flats probably influences my personal strengths and weaknesses the most. If I am riding hard on the flat I usually favour the hoods over drops.
My biggest thing for staying aero seems to be the little bit of beer gut I get in the winter that takes quite a long time to get rid of. And perhaps just range of motion in my neck keeping me from being able to see as far down the road as I'd like.
While on being on the hoods in a relaxed position is a comfortable position for long drawn out climbs, I still think I put out more power into the pedals when in the drops. And when I do get out of the seat to climb, I also do that better staying in the drops.
I suppose the differences in our bikes might make a world of difference too. I have short reach shallow drop bars on my bike. But still there is a big difference in effort needed to push 20 mph on the hoods and 20 mph in the drops. At least perception wise there is. I haven't gotten around to actually comparing PM data for that. I'm mostly just enjoying the warm weather now when riding.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,709
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4543 Post(s)
Liked 5,050 Times
in
3,118 Posts
I've never felt that it harder to breathe or my lung function is reduced when in the drops. I even went to narrower bars recently and didn't notice any breathing restriction. But you aren't the only one I've heard that has said being in the drops or that narrow bars make it more difficult for breathing. So I don't know what's up there. Maybe like some people have to be taught how to properly breathe to sing well, there are people that need to be able to change up how they breathe for the bike.
My biggest thing for staying aero seems to be the little bit of beer gut I get in the winter that takes quite a long time to get rid of. And perhaps just range of motion in my neck keeping me from being able to see as far down the road as I'd like.
While on being on the hoods in a relaxed position is a comfortable position for long drawn out climbs, I still think I put out more power into the pedals when in the drops. And when I do get out of the seat to climb, I also do that better staying in the drops.
I suppose the differences in our bikes might make a world of difference too. I have short reach shallow drop bars on my bike. But still there is a big difference in effort needed to push 20 mph on the hoods and 20 mph in the drops. At least perception wise there is. I haven't gotten around to actually comparing PM data for that. I'm mostly just enjoying the warm weather now when riding.
My biggest thing for staying aero seems to be the little bit of beer gut I get in the winter that takes quite a long time to get rid of. And perhaps just range of motion in my neck keeping me from being able to see as far down the road as I'd like.
While on being on the hoods in a relaxed position is a comfortable position for long drawn out climbs, I still think I put out more power into the pedals when in the drops. And when I do get out of the seat to climb, I also do that better staying in the drops.
I suppose the differences in our bikes might make a world of difference too. I have short reach shallow drop bars on my bike. But still there is a big difference in effort needed to push 20 mph on the hoods and 20 mph in the drops. At least perception wise there is. I haven't gotten around to actually comparing PM data for that. I'm mostly just enjoying the warm weather now when riding.
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,038
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3998 Post(s)
Liked 7,489 Times
in
3,013 Posts
You'd have to have a God awful CdA and CRR combo to only go 22mph on 240w on a flat road. Like, you'd need to be up on a mountain bike or Dutch with Gatorskins or knobbies.
So, the physics is off on your estimate. You're putting out less than you think at 22mph, and can thus go longer.
In either case without a good meter, it's still guess work. The hill is closer to reality, the steeper it is. But you'd still need to lookup the CRR of your tires. Flat? Nah. It won't work out without one.
So, the physics is off on your estimate. You're putting out less than you think at 22mph, and can thus go longer.
In either case without a good meter, it's still guess work. The hill is closer to reality, the steeper it is. But you'd still need to lookup the CRR of your tires. Flat? Nah. It won't work out without one.
#45
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,044
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1284 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times
in
714 Posts
that said, i do think the power meter in that bike reads a little high, maybe 5-10%. but it reads consistently high, so the original question still holds. i do believe it's a combination of factors mentioned, crank inertia, heat/wind, adrenaline, boredom/psychology, riding position...
#46
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
Their loop had zero elevation, it was an outdoor run/bike fitness track. The Strava elevation profile is about 4 posts above. Your loop there got nearly 1000ft in 30mi. A bit different. And, you were at 1/2 mph faster at that also. So almost supporting my claim instead of refuting it.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,038
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3998 Post(s)
Liked 7,489 Times
in
3,013 Posts
Their loop had zero elevation, it was an outdoor run/bike fitness track. The Strava elevation profile is about 4 posts above. Your loop there got nearly 1000ft in 30mi. A bit different. And, you were at 1/2 mph faster at that also. So almost supporting my claim instead of refuting it.
Here's a run at exactly 22.0 mph average:
So, no, it doesn't support your claim.
#48
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,569 Times
in
974 Posts
It was also a loop, so there is no net elevation gain. Basically the first 15 miles are at about 1% and the last 15 miles are at about -1%. (Those small slopes would cause a drop in average speed of about 2% compared to a perfectly flat course.)
Here's a run at exactly 22.0 mph average:
So, no, it doesn't support your claim.
Here's a run at exactly 22.0 mph average:
So, no, it doesn't support your claim.
Folks are different, and different in this case means a pretty high combo of CRR and CdA for the power given. Others are a lot less. We've a college kid roadie here that did a 20mi loop locally at around 25mph on 260w. No TT bars. With a few small rollers in there. No aero frameset. Maybe 38mm deep wheels. Again, different.
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,038
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3998 Post(s)
Liked 7,489 Times
in
3,013 Posts