msu2001la

This. Giant shows this bike on their website as available for local pickup, but when I select Medium/Large it shows the closest available shop as 300 miles away in Cleveland. They also state: "We recommend contacting the Select Retailer before submitting your order to ensure availability and discuss assembly time frames" so there's a chance that shop doesn't actually have that bike, and it's just outdated info in their system.

I suppose I could call that shop in Cleveland, make sure they've actually got the bike (or can get it), buy it from them and then pay them pack and ship it from Cleveland to Chicago. Assuming they would even agree to that, I'd still end up paying over MSRP after covering shipping costs, and hope my new bike arrives in good condition with no issues. No idea how much assembly or adjusting would be needed on my end and if there are any problems I'm left hoping a shop in Cleveland I've never heard of will be responsive.

Alternatively I could click the buy button on TPC and have this same bike with upgraded Zipp wheels in my hands by the weekend, for $550 more, albeit with some scuff marks. I know TPC will ship this bike in a way that will be simple to assemble and be ready to ride in minutes. TPC also provides a no-questions return policy and a buy-back guarantee. If there are problems, I'm confident that TPC will be responsive.

Considering the Zipp wheels, I don't actually think TPC's pricing on this bike is that crazy. TPC is selling 2-5 year old Zipp 303 Firecrest carbon clinchers for $1200-$1400.

msu2001la

I see a Trance Advanced Pro frame available on Giant's website for $3300 and listed as "in-stock", but when I select one of the sizes listed as in-stock the nearest retailer is 150 miles away. When I click on that retailer's website they have a huge message saying they are NOT shipping stuff, don't ask, they are ONLY selling local.

Is the factory warranty really worth paying $100 more and a 300 mile round trip in the car to purchase? If someone decides they would rather just pay $100 less and get the same frame without a factory warranty delivered to their door in a few days, does that really make them a fool?

Kapusta

I don't know what the stock situation is now, it was in early January when I was looking.

Since this discussion is happening on the Road forum, I should point out that buying a used FS MTB frame has different implications than buying a used road frame.

mstateglfr 

So price gouging isnt actually a thing and is OK, until it is a thing and isnt OK.
^ that is a genuine summary of your post. We then get into who gets to decide when something is gouging and when it is just accurately pricing the market. That will inevitably be a varying point on the spectrum depending on who you ask, which makes it all quite worthless since it doesnt actually then clarify anything.

In the end, we all interpret price and value differently because we all come to the table with different needs and capabilities. What someone views as being worth the cost doesnt mean everyone must have that same opinion. Some view LV bags as being worth the cost, yet many find it foolish. Neither is right or wrong. Both views can exist.
If both couldnt exist, then there would literally never be someone that could say 'that seems expensive' without being wrong for doing so. Come on.

What something is worth is relative and a lot of factors go into that worth. This is especially true on the used side of things, which is where PC mostly plays. Availability, size, condition, time of year, price relative to other options- all these are factors that play a role in determining both price and what something is ultimately worth. I totally recognize all that. I just find it comical to expect people to never voice their opinion on whether something is worth the price. We certainly accept it when people say 'that is a great value' or 'yeah that is for sure worth the asking price', but it isnt OK to say the opposite?

seypat

Safety standards require pneumatic power tools to come with eye protection included in the box. Most come with a case and a small tube of lube. The majority of buyers that come through my door only want the tool itself. They don't care about the rest of the contents of the box. But, you can throw those accumulated safety glasses/goggles or lube bottles in view with a sign "$3.50 a pair" and those same people will buy them up like it's candy! It puts a smile on my face for multiple reasons.

You also have the customers that think you're trying to swindle them.
"How much is a box of that?"
"$100 for 5m."
"Lowes sells them for $25 per box."
"What qty is in their box?"
"1m. But it's only $25."
"Sounds like a deal. You better get some, then."

tomato coupe

Price gouging generally applies to essential goods, like food, water, fuel, etc. It would be difficult to successfully argue that a bike listed for sale on TPC falls under the category of essential goods.

mstateglfr 

Yes, I understand. Again though, what is essential? Gas isnt essential for travel...this is a cycling forum. Water is essential, but at what point is it gouging?....10%? 25%?...there is no singular answer to this. Increasing the cost of medication is acceptable, but only to a point. After that, its a Martin Shkreli situation. What is that point though?
Its all a moving target. Its a moving target between people and between periods of time. There is no singular answer to any of this.


Its why I mention that it should be absolutely OK for someone to say 'thats a rip-off'- because there is no singular agreed upon point where value and cost intersect. It is universally acceptable to say 'that is a great deal!', but it isnt OK to say 'thats a rip off'? Really odd.

Troul 

that is agreeable to a point. As long as the statement is blanket & not directed to anyone (not saying that you did this) specific (name dropping) all is fine in my view. Making it generally known that you see it not a deal may help others understand what the market value might be.

If someone responds to your blanket statement demonstrating that they are offended in some way, well, that person put that on themselves by calling there purchase decisions out in a public area. I find it mostly useful that someone voices up to call out a poorly priced item. It puts a little transparency in the market.

eduskator

A good is only worth what a customer is ready to pay for Supply and demand... Used bikes are now often sold at higher prices than their MSRP due to shortage.

Go for the new one, even if it's less equipped. You can make the upgrades later on.

mstateglfr 

Right. This forum has a sticky thread called 'hot deals'. That thread is for purchases that forum members think are a really good value. Why is that OK for us to have and express an opinion on value and worth when we think it is a good value, but saying something isnt a good value isnt OK?

Troul 

I don't think it's necessarily "not ok" but more so a debate between those with different perspectives.

Psimet2001 

Saying, "That's expensive and I don't want to buy it." is different than saying, "That person who likes it and bought it is a fool."

All of this exists on a spectrum of course. I mean I can't argue with the idea that anyone buying any NFT is a complete fool.

The root of this is the judgements people throw around on here regarding how much someone decides to spend on what they want. It really is more of an indicator of the character of the one doing the judging rather than the person buying the item IMHO.

It's the same thought process that many shops use when clients come in for service work. "Your bike needs a lot of work and honestly it's not worth it. You should spend more and just buy a new bike from us. It would be a better thing to do with your money and you'd be a fool to not do so." Locally we have always been a service only shop so when customers figured out we didn't judge how they were spending their money we got busy. Our conversations were more like,

"This is how much your bike will cost to fix."
"OK. I want to fix it."
"Sounds good. Let me get some information..."
"Do you think my bike is 'WORTH' fixing?"
"Only you know whether or not it's worth it to you."
"Is it a good bike?"
"It's YOUR bike. We can fix it for $x. That makes it safe and makes the riding experience more enjoyable. I'm sure that amount would make a dent in the price of a new bike if that's they way you'd prefer to go but if you want to spend $x on getting this one fixed and it's worth it to you then yeah...it's a good bike."

Granted we didn't blow smoke up anyone's ass either. "This - no it's a big box Bike Shaped Object (BSO). It wasn't really built to be ridden and they planned on selling it to someone who might ride it 2 or 3 times and then store it for the next 20 years. I can make it ridable but it will always be a bike that isn't really meant to be ridden a long time or last for long."

Psimet2001 

It's not the calling out the price as being too high. It's calling the person that decides to buy it a fool. It's the judgement.

To use the price gouging example: selling a case of water for $200 after a storm. Yeah that's too expensive. Yes it's a rip off. The person who is buying it isn't necessarily a fool though. You don't know their situation. Maybe they have the money and it's not a big deal. Maybe they have no other choice and without the water they will lose something they value more. That's why we have laws about the practice of price gouging.

As you say though it's a slippery slope.

tomato coupe

Details vary from state to state, but you can start with the office of the Attorney General from your home state:

https://www.iowaattorneygeneral.gov/...5B5C97DD8C.pdf

I think it will be very clear from the above that TPC is not price gouging.

Psimet2001 

I typed a response the other day but didn't post it so I'll share it now.

Long story and I'll skip most of it - Wife's uncle was the past president of a company I worked for. During the little bush era when gas prices were north of $4.50/gal he came in and was chatting in my office. He goes off and says he hates how everyone is complaining about gas prices. He thinks they should be higher. He could afford it. "Make it $15/gal. Then there wouldn't be any traffic getting in my way."

Sure - in this example that would be if thee was one station selling gas for $10 and one for $15 then people would call him a fool for going to the one that was $15. ...but for him if the one that was charging $15 was close to his house or was on his way then by all means he is choosing the one that is $15. That didn't make him a fool... it simply meant others didn't grasp the concept of his actual wealth and how valuable he viewed his time to be in relation to the "meager" difference in price.

himespau 

I can't comprehend the amount of my valuable time I spend trying to find the best deal on the best of whatever I'm trying to buy. If I put a value on it, I'd be losing money every time. And yet, I keep doing it for some reason. I spent months dithering over a new grill and not getting anywhere when we moved to our first house big enough to have one. My wife opened a Lowes add and just bought one that looked nice for me for Father's day. Sure, 8 years later it's mostly rusted out and we'll have to replace it, but we got 8 years out of it at a price my wife was happy to pay without the months wasted on analysis paralysis that I had.

Psimet2001 

Yup. I used to suffer from it as well but I figured out price shopping and research was more a coping mechanism for how to spend my time at work when the work just sucked. I'm still this way about having anyone else do any kind of work on the house. "Why pay so much money for something I can do myself". As I have aged I have relinquished control on that a little. Sure it still stings in the moment but having things be done and not causing stress has been near lifechanging.

mstateglfr 

- layman's use of 'price gouging' is emotion based and i am comfortable with claiming that the vast majority of people dont know a specific number exists.
- a specific number doesn't exist, which is what I mentioned earlier. Your link highlights the lack of singular definition.
- I agree, PC is not price gouging. I haven't claimed they are price gouging. The initialnmention of price gouging was to highlight where the logical conclusion of a view that holds no restrictions.

Troul 

Until the times of having to have the work done over & over, out of your pocket. Knowing when & where to put the effort to do the research drastically reduces analysis paralysis.

urbanknight

To be fair, a brand new bike in a standard bike box would require the same exact amount of assembly and adjusting as a bike from TPC. But the rest of what you said are definitely factors to consider.

Psimet2001 

This is one of those things that will definitely cause headaches in the larger direct to consumer market. Every time I bring up something like Carvana and mention they do OK with consumer direct and it's way more complicated of a product people are quick to point out they don't deliver a car that is "mostly" assembled.

I build and adjust many Canyon and TPC bikes that customers bring in because they aren't confident about doing it and adjusting them themselves. As far as how much needs to be done - that varies and there is no hard and fast rule. To take either end of the spectrum from always no adjustments to always needing to adjust everything would be a flawed position imho

urbanknight

That is indeed a tricky concept, and it probably really comes down to one's own personal opinion. I initially tried to correlate it to my average hourly rate at work, but nobody pays me (or charges me) that much for shopping for bike parts (or whatever I'm buying). Actually, more important to me than finding a good price is finding the right product. I waste more money buying something I end up not liking and then buying a whole other one, so I'll "waste" more time researching that than looking for the lowest price on the same item.

WhyFi

Like the espresso machine legwork that I'm doing right now?

Psimet2001 

Rocket. That's all I will say about that.

WhyFi

Nah. I have an e61 HX right now. Leaning towards a spring lever like a Londinium or Profitec Pro 800.