Pendergast

Watching the replay at normal speed it looks like Sagan caused the crash, but in slo-mo you can see that Cavendish was pushing Sagan with his head just before the crash and that Cavendish was already starting to crash before Sagan's elbow came out. Sagan did move to the right to keep Cavendish from squeezing through though. Cavendish decided to try it anyway. I don't think I would have kicked Sagan out of the TdF over that.

one4smoke

^ +1

I honestly thought Sagan was more at fault when I first saw it happen. But, after seeing it every-which-way-to-Sunday, I do believe Cavendish is at fault. He initially made contact with Sagan, appears to be out of control in the process, and Sagn's elbow doesn't appear to have ever made any contact whatsoever.

Yup, Cavendish is to blame and it's a shame both are out of the race.

roadwarrior

Sagan never hit Cavendish with his elbow. Cavendish was going down before all that. Really nice look at it on the NBC Tour show today.
The call was crap. It would be nice if people who are making these calls had actually raced a bike. I mean really raced a bike.
Everyone I saw I the pro cycling community is saying eliminating Sagan was bull.

wfl3

Yep, Sagan didn't elbow Cavendish.

In fact, after seeing some nice clear close ups today it was obvious that Cav's brakehood clipped Sagan's arm and caused it to bump up and out. Cavendish was already on his way to the barrier before the elbow came up.

McBTC

Yeah, that's the ticket, newbies on CF bikes upfront where they don't belong, pushing straight-ahead – taking the shortest distance between two points – and just crashing into barriers instead for no reason. Of course... who needs video? What's with that jury anyway?

HardyWeinberg

Definitely Sagan. Just need to look at the picture!

Lazyass

Because Sagan came over into his line, pinched him into the wall and caused the crash. So disqualified he is.

brianmcg123

Hilarious.

wfl3

LOL!

Not Sagan's job to worry about what was happening behind him, especially with Demare cutting across everyone and nearly clipping Bouhanni's wheel.

Sagan was DQ'd for the elbow and it was a crap DQ - the arm/elbow only flipped out when Cav's brakehood hit as he was going into the barrier. It was very easy to see in the slo-mo close up shown on the Tour coverage today. There's a reason EVERYONE now thinks the DQ was BS except team dimension and a few Cavendish leghumpers.

Steve C

Look at the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOyN...ature=youtu.be

At 03 Cav is in front of Sagan, plenty of room to the barrier
04 Still plenty of room still in front
07 Sagan starting to crowd Cav
09 Pushes Cav into barrier, little flick of the elbow before the major one everybody is talking about

Should have been penalised, not DQ'd though

wfl3

at :03 I see Cav's arm still clearly hidden behind Sagan's arm.

the perception of the picture at :06 makes it look like he may be ahead. but he still isn't.

the little elbow flick you're referring to was in reaction to Cav digging his head into Sagan's hip, probably just instinct to stay upright.

The bigger question is why Demare cutting across and clipping Bouhanni's wheel didn't garner a penalty? Just because he managed to not crash?

brianmcg123

At no point in time was Cavendish ever in front of Sagan. Cavendish came from behind and crashed into Sagan.

The "elbow" was Cavendish's bars pulling on Sagan as he fell. He was already in the barrier.

Pendergast

People on a thread at Weight Weenies are saying Demare changed line to avoid a drain cover and that Cavendish ran over it and that's what caused his wheel to slide out. I've watched the videos and think I can see what they're talking about, but I can't see it well enough to say any more than "maybe".

Pendergast

Here's a good photo showing the brake hood hooking Sagan's arm.

Steve C

Way after the time I was talking about.

So Sagan never went off his racing line towards Cav?

There is easily enough room between Sagan and the barrier for Cav to begin with.

These guys are travelling at over 40mph with fractions of a second to decide where to go.

Again, normal incident with a sad result, not a DQ.

CliffordK

It appears to me that the accident was an unfortunate circumstance where both Sagan and Cavendish aggressively dove into a hole where there was none. Had they broke left, they likely would have been shoulder to shoulder at the finish line. So, I'd give both riders nearly equal share in the accident.

There was really NO holding one's line, as that would have meant simply following the leader of the draft line. Both riders, and the rest of the peloton were seeking a new line to pull ahead of the pack, but everyone moved in synch in the wrong direction, leading two riders into the wall.

There certainly wasn't much of a hole for either Sagan or Cavendish to dive into.

So we should blame Sagan for not pulling Cavendish's bike back upright?

That "hook" makes it appears as if Sagan was reacting to keep his own bike upright.

That hook is likely what caused Cavendish to go down. The natural tendency on a bike is to countersteer. So, if one is falling right, one steers right, and recovers. Cavendish was close to the curb, but he never steered right, and his wheels never bumped the curb. By bumping Sagan, this caused Cavendish's bike to steer left, and fall out from under himself.

From looking at the analyses on the internet, it appears as if the race organizers over-reacted, and too soon. Give him a penalty. ˝ hour if one wishes. Enough to allow him to be competitive in future stages, but likely knock him off of the general podium.

Then take a few days to look at post-race analysis, collect still photos and videos from various sources, and even adjust the penalty as seems appropriate (from zero penalty to longer or suspension).

At this point, Sagan has missed a couple of stages, and it is too late to say oops, bad referee call.

memebag

Sagan should not have been DQ'd for the sprint crash.

He should have been DQ'd for listening to "Eye of the Tiger" while warming up for stage 1.

Ninety5rpm

I won't bother repeating this. Exactly right.

Anyone who disagrees needs to watch the videos in slo-mo more.

Pendergast

Check this out. Looks like Demare moved left to avoid a drain, Cavendish hit it which caused his bike to start to slide out. That tilted his bike causing his brake hood to hook Sagan's arm. I wonder if he would have been able to recover if his brake hood hadn't hooked Sagan.

https://m.imgur.com/iZIngF8

MinnMan

Opinion piece re Sagan vs. UCI in the NY Times
https://nyti.ms/2uSv5to

CliffordK

I don't think the drain affected Demare. I think he realized that there wasn't enough space on the right, and moved left for a hole to get around other riders, although his move was dangerous, and he may have clipped the rider behind him. It appears as if Sagan also moved left before the end of the race.

I can't say how the drain would have affected Cavendish. I can't tell vertical displacement from the photo, but it doesn't look that deep. Looking at the slow motion, Cavendish does hit the drain head on shortly before the bike begins leaning, but he may have already locked handlebars with Sagan by that time.

CliffordK

One rider that I haven't seen discussed is André Greipel. As far as I can tell, he is the rider in the red shirt, #2 in the break away (red shirt,black helmet), with the person I presume is his teammate Jurgen Roelandts (red shirt, red helmet) leading the breakaway.

Jurgen peals off to the left, while André Greipel goes right.

Throughout the rest of the sprint, Greipel continues to move right, and finishes the sprint only a few feet from the right curb, almost outside of all the other riders.

I believe it is Greipel's move right that pushed Sagan and Cavendish into the wall. And, since he was leading the sprint, there would have been no reason to not proceed straight ahead. Jurgen Roelandts coasted out of the way, and could have/should have given Greipel plenty of room to stay left.

Nachoman

At the very least that shot shows the ambiguity of the situation, thereby making Sagan's disqualification seem more unjust.

Pendergast

If you enlarge the Street View image of the grate, you can see the shape of it better:

https://www.google.sk/maps/@48.19608...b2jXS_f1Gg!2e0

The metal isn't flat and looks to me like something that could cause a wheel to slide at the speed Cavendish is going. That's what appears to happen. Skip to about 3:30 in this video which shows that segment pretty well:



You might be right about Demare, but it looks like he swerves to miss the grate to me. Cavendish may not have even seen the grate before he hit it.

CliffordK

That does look like a pretty nasty sewer grate. I try to avoid those at 10-20 MPH. It is hard to imagine what it would be like at 30-50 MPH, although at least it is over quickly.

It might be interesting to see a forensic analysis of Cavendish's bike. Pinch flats front/rear? Cracked rims from vertical impact?

However, looking at the blowup video in high-res, slow mo, one clearly sees Cavendish's front wheel cross the grate and seems to continue generally straight. His bike seems to swerve left about the time the rear wheel hits the grate. Initially it seemed like a hop, but I think that would have been about the time he impacted with Sagan, which would have turned the bars left, and he was never able to recover, and never steered right again.

I see quite a few views of riders looking down, but Cavendish does appear to be looking ahead before the accident, so he should have been looking at the road. Bunny Hop? However, the French probably don't want to hear it, but they might look at course design. They could easily cover the storm sewer grates for sunny days, at least near critical corners and near the end. There are advantages of a technical course, but perhaps also chose a straight stretch of road for the end of the stages whenever possible, especially when finishing level or downhill. In this case, the riders rounded a curve shortly before the final sprint, impacting road position, and perhaps also the final drift right.

Lots of people taking photos, including one person who had opened the wall near where the accident occurred too.

I still think that André Greipel's move right was both odd, and severely negatively impacted the sprint dynamics. It almost looks like a deliberate attempt to cut off the field. If anybody should be penalized, I thinik it would be Greipel.

Although, I'd hate to think of future cycling being won on penalty points like American Basketball and Football.