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12-04-20, 02:09 PM
#26
Sunshine
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12-04-20, 08:15 PM
#28
Drip, Drip.
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Aluminium can be non-jarring as well. It's about geometry (and wheel base) mostly. That said, my mini-velo (Dahon Smooth Hound) can be jarring too under the right circumstances, but that is not due to the material.
I've had loads of alu bikes, and apart from the mini-velo none of them was jarring. Least of all is the Bullitt (a long john). It is by far the least "jarring" bike I own (it even feels "soft" at times). The Omnium cargo (Ti) feels much stiffer than the Bullitt, but it is not jarring despite the oversized tubes compared to the steel version (steel omnium). It just feels stiff as it should be when you carry a lot of weight.
I think you're confusing lack of flex with "jarring". I don't think flex is a good thing, regardless of the material. In fact, you have to have a minimum of stifness to the rear frame to use a Rohloff hub, if not, it will jump gears or not shift properly. I have seen some titanium bikes with the same diameter as a steel version, you don't want that as that is making the whole bike more flexy than the steel version.
Carbon can be made as stiff as you want it, or as flexible as you want it. It all depends. It's not the material choice that makes the difference, it is how you implement it.
But it doesn't matter. My preferred metal is titanium. When it does flex due to loads, you don't fatigue it like you would an alu frame, and you don't have the weight or corrosion of steel. Carbon is great for some things too.
My fork on the Omnium is steel. Luckily, it isn't a super expensive fork, so if it begins to rust, is otherwise damaged, or I suspect it is rusting inside, I can buy a new one for little money. That said, I'd prefer a fork made from (oversized) titanium for weight, ease of mind, strength, and corrosion resistance. I'd consider a BMX vert fork from CF if I could figure out how to attach a tab for the steerer rod (both my cargo bikes employ steerer rods).A custom titanium fork would not have that problem.
I've had loads of alu bikes, and apart from the mini-velo none of them was jarring. Least of all is the Bullitt (a long john). It is by far the least "jarring" bike I own (it even feels "soft" at times). The Omnium cargo (Ti) feels much stiffer than the Bullitt, but it is not jarring despite the oversized tubes compared to the steel version (steel omnium). It just feels stiff as it should be when you carry a lot of weight.
I think you're confusing lack of flex with "jarring". I don't think flex is a good thing, regardless of the material. In fact, you have to have a minimum of stifness to the rear frame to use a Rohloff hub, if not, it will jump gears or not shift properly. I have seen some titanium bikes with the same diameter as a steel version, you don't want that as that is making the whole bike more flexy than the steel version.
Carbon can be made as stiff as you want it, or as flexible as you want it. It all depends. It's not the material choice that makes the difference, it is how you implement it.
But it doesn't matter. My preferred metal is titanium. When it does flex due to loads, you don't fatigue it like you would an alu frame, and you don't have the weight or corrosion of steel. Carbon is great for some things too.
My fork on the Omnium is steel. Luckily, it isn't a super expensive fork, so if it begins to rust, is otherwise damaged, or I suspect it is rusting inside, I can buy a new one for little money. That said, I'd prefer a fork made from (oversized) titanium for weight, ease of mind, strength, and corrosion resistance. I'd consider a BMX vert fork from CF if I could figure out how to attach a tab for the steerer rod (both my cargo bikes employ steerer rods).A custom titanium fork would not have that problem.
First off, try building a steel frame. See if you can make a good one. Once you do, keep trying with aluminum. If you're good enough, titanium is your next bet. Then you'll be simply the best.
Considering that the majority of us ride a frame which wasn't built by us, we feel like we must have such high standards while disregarding the very foundation of what allowed bicycle frames to adopt into contemporary carbon, titanium and alloy counterparts.
12-04-20, 08:30 PM
#29
Not a newbie to cycling
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First off, try building a steel frame. See if you can make a good one. Once you do, keep trying with aluminum. If you're good enough, titanium is your next bet. Then you'll be simply the best.
Considering that the majority of us ride a frame which wasn't built by us, we feel like we must have such high standards while disregarding the very foundation of what allowed bicycle frames to adopt into contemporary carbon, titanium and alloy counterparts.
I honestly don't get your point here.
Oh, and btw, both the titanium and steel bikes are made from alloys. Titanium alloys and iron alloys. If not, you'd have a superflexy noodly titanium bike, and you'd have a pure-iron bike as your "steel" bike. Aluminium too. Aluminium bikes are made from aluminium alloys.
Sorry, but it's a bit of a sticking point for me when people use "alloy" when they mean "alu/aluminum/aluminium. You would never use pure titanium for a bike, and you'd never use pure iron for a bike either. Same is true of aluminium.
I give you that welding together a steel frame can be done by most anyone back in their garden. However, it takes quite a lot of skill to make a good one. Welding steel as such is easier than the others, but it's just a skill and the correct setup. And,no, I have no intention of investing in a titanium welding setup or attempt to make own home-brewed frame (or fork) from carbon. Making it myself is pointless and has nothing to do with the different shortcomings of various materials.
I also have a pro built my wheels. I could do it myself, but a pro with the right tools and better knowledge and routine will be better at it, making for stronger wheels in the end. I want as stiff and rigid wheels as possible, thank you very much.
Last edited by CargoDane; 12-04-20 at 08:34 PM.
12-05-20, 08:10 AM
#30
Drip, Drip.
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I disagree. Frame/fork flex is uncontrolled and works against you. You may want some give in the grips/bar wrap, but the rest should be in the tyres or a suspension if you have one.
Why would I do that? I have better things to do than to weld bike frames. I can't even see how that in any way influence how a bike is to ride on.
Ah, I see, so because someone can weld a steel frame in their shed, it must somehow be a better product?
I honestly don't get your point here.
Oh, and btw, both the titanium and steel bikes are made from alloys. Titanium alloys and iron alloys. If not, you'd have a superflexy noodly titanium bike, and you'd have a pure-iron bike as your "steel" bike. Aluminium too. Aluminium bikes are made from aluminium alloys.
Sorry, but it's a bit of a sticking point for me when people use "alloy" when they mean "alu/aluminum/aluminium. You would never use pure titanium for a bike, and you'd never use pure iron for a bike either. Same is true of aluminium.
I give you that welding together a steel frame can be done by most anyone back in their garden. However, it takes quite a lot of skill to make a good one. Welding steel as such is easier than the others, but it's just a skill and the correct setup. And,no, I have no intention of investing in a titanium welding setup or attempt to make own home-brewed frame (or fork) from carbon. Making it myself is pointless and has nothing to do with the different shortcomings of various materials.
I also have a pro built my wheels. I could do it myself, but a pro with the right tools and better knowledge and routine will be better at it, making for stronger wheels in the end. I want as stiff and rigid wheels as possible, thank you very much.
Why would I do that? I have better things to do than to weld bike frames. I can't even see how that in any way influence how a bike is to ride on.
Ah, I see, so because someone can weld a steel frame in their shed, it must somehow be a better product?
I honestly don't get your point here.
Oh, and btw, both the titanium and steel bikes are made from alloys. Titanium alloys and iron alloys. If not, you'd have a superflexy noodly titanium bike, and you'd have a pure-iron bike as your "steel" bike. Aluminium too. Aluminium bikes are made from aluminium alloys.
Sorry, but it's a bit of a sticking point for me when people use "alloy" when they mean "alu/aluminum/aluminium. You would never use pure titanium for a bike, and you'd never use pure iron for a bike either. Same is true of aluminium.
I give you that welding together a steel frame can be done by most anyone back in their garden. However, it takes quite a lot of skill to make a good one. Welding steel as such is easier than the others, but it's just a skill and the correct setup. And,no, I have no intention of investing in a titanium welding setup or attempt to make own home-brewed frame (or fork) from carbon. Making it myself is pointless and has nothing to do with the different shortcomings of various materials.
I also have a pro built my wheels. I could do it myself, but a pro with the right tools and better knowledge and routine will be better at it, making for stronger wheels in the end. I want as stiff and rigid wheels as possible, thank you very much.
This slight amount of compliance exhibited by just about any bike is not enough to limit power trasnfer in any way, but when done correctly it can absolutely improve the feel and performance of a bike by boosting endurance comfort.
Like I said, the entire frame does not need to be as punishjngly stiff as possible. I don't see how you can argue that such a small amount of compliance would inhibit power trasnfer or performance in any way. If anything, it can actually contribute to the response and feedback of the frame.
For example, while i don't mind aluminium, I would definitely prefer a steel or chromoly fork to help smooth out the front end a little bit- which it absolutely does.
I think you missed my point regarding frame building.
My intentions were to convey the difficulties associated with using these fancy alloys you describe. Once you know fully well how complex it is to build a good steel frame, let alone aluminium alloy, or titanium alloy, I think one can appreciate modern bike frames this much more.
Good point re the alloys. Thank you for clarifying.
