Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?
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Gravel Cyclist JOM says he shifts about 3000 times in a Dirty Kanza race and the effort saved by electric shifting is not insignificant.
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Gravel Cyclist JOM says he shifts about 3000 times in a Dirty Kanza race and the effort saved by electric shifting is not insignificant.
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Right; they just cut out the middleman and let the lever itself break in your hand. They also pinky-swear they fixed the front shifting this time, after the double-dog-swear last time.
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Do you think Campagnolo will allow the EPS 12 speed technology to trickle down to Record and Chorus, or do you think it'll remain exclusive to Super Record? I would assume so, but how long do they typically wait?
Last edited by mrblue; 10-20-20 at 07:08 PM.
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If you look at the rear mech on a Di2 setup, during the initial shift, it moves too far, forcing the shift to occur, pauses for a second or two, then moves the upper pulley directly back inline. That motion path can't be replicated with a standard cable index shifter. You can approximate it by over-pressing the shift lever, but that only works in one direction. The exaggerated motion provides a more consistent shift, and the automatic trim reduces noise and drag.
You only need it going to bigger cogs anyway.
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What's the point? To reduce the amount of skill required to ride a bike. "What a stupide idea!" you say. No, not at all. Take downtube friction shifters. Can you shift them? I bet you can. Now can you shift in a paceline? In a tight peloton? While out of the saddle? Haha, not so easy! Electronic shifting allows you to shift under higher load and from more locations on the bars. If you don't see the point, you're not pushing your equipment and, more importantly, your skill to the limit. This is "the point" of all new technology. Said the retrogrouch.
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#59
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What's the point? To reduce the amount of skill required to ride a bike. "What a stupide idea!" you say. No, not at all. Take downtube friction shifters. Can you shift them? I bet you can. Now can you shift in a paceline? In a tight peloton? While out of the saddle? Haha, not so easy! Electronic shifting allows you to shift under higher load and from more locations on the bars. If you don't see the point, you're not pushing your equipment and, more importantly, your skill to the limit. This is "the point" of all new technology. Said the retrogrouch.
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I have 6800 mech and I love it. It does not require any trim adjustment at all in any of the cogs really. It never misses a shift and if it does then I need to start looking at the cable and fraying. I have had it happen twice that I road in the small cog due to rear cable break. That said the bike was still rideable and I came home put new cable on before any electronic would have gotten back battery power. I am not at all against Di2 but right now my 6800 is not broke and I won't fix it. It shifts pretty effortlessly even the front. I have 6700 on my other bike and while is shifts fine it does require a bit more effort.
Like many things on this issue I am not in a hurry but eventually I probably will go to disk brakes. Most of my gripe is in press fit BB and I still find exposed cables much easier to deal with so I in the middle of all this for new technology on bikes.
Like many things on this issue I am not in a hurry but eventually I probably will go to disk brakes. Most of my gripe is in press fit BB and I still find exposed cables much easier to deal with so I in the middle of all this for new technology on bikes.
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But regardless, props are incontrovertibly due for so elegantly pissing all over the whole concept of FD trimming. If there is indeed much room for improvement of the Yaw FD, it's not a stretch to imagine SRAM will utterly perfect it for the next generation, if the difference between 1st-gen and 2nd-gen is anything to go by.
#62
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Di2 is superb, not tried other electronic gearing. Is it essential? Nope. Is it great? Yes.
Once set up never needs adjusting, super easy shifting, same time every time. Integrated with head unit can see what gear selection is which I find really useful.
As for battery charge issue, only a moron would have a problem with this, it lasts months/1000s of miles per charge and super easy to check level especially if have D-Fly unit connected.
So to sum up, I love it and will definitely have again if I change bike. Is it worth extra money? To me yes to others maybe not but if you can afford it get it.
Once set up never needs adjusting, super easy shifting, same time every time. Integrated with head unit can see what gear selection is which I find really useful.
As for battery charge issue, only a moron would have a problem with this, it lasts months/1000s of miles per charge and super easy to check level especially if have D-Fly unit connected.
So to sum up, I love it and will definitely have again if I change bike. Is it worth extra money? To me yes to others maybe not but if you can afford it get it.
#63
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That's not the only advantage; unlike mechanical shifting, it stays in tune indefinitely if unmolested. Then there's syncro shifting, along with the ability to reassign buttons at will, at least with E-tube Di2. And it potentially enables a drivetrain setup that would otherwise be too fiddly, ie a half-step triple to provide closer ratios at speed than otherwise available.
I don't need nor want syncro shift. I can do that manually without thinking. When I change chainrings I mostly always shift the RD to compensate and it's not a big deal. At least for someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time.
BTW, I see lots of people around riding with half-step triples
#64
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Things work great when new. Not so great when they age. And Li-Ion batteries, when they fail, sometimes they don't show a low battery or anything. They just shut down, suddenly.
If that happens with your digital camera it's not a big deal. If that happens in the middle of nowhere while doing a brevet or who knows what, you're in for a lot of fun.
And yes, you can carry a spare to solve that issue. They probably weigh more than the spare cable I carry with me and some people were making fun of.
#65
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Yes. Probably some moron who never had a Li-Ion battery failure.
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#66
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I was referring to the many people who over the years have complained that one of THE big problems is the battery "unexpectedly" runs out/goes flat because they didn't charge it and are left stuck in big ring or something rather than a total failure of a battery which is another matter. I've had my Canyon with Di2 for 3 years and not one glitch or anything. If the battery should pack up for any reason then it's a risk I'm willing to take for years of trouble free cycling.
But that's not the only possible failure. Electrical contacts, when they age, they tend to fail. Anyone who has messed up with old computers has surely encountered issues when a computer doesn't detect a RAM module or a graphics card, and you remove it, mount it again and it works... for a few days / weeks.
Then there's the motors, which will wear down with time / vibration, and you can't see to inspect their current state. Who knows where they're going to fail?
Maybe you replace your bakes on a yearly basis and don't care about that. I tend to keep my bikes for at least 10 years, and I definitely wouldn't like having to call someone to pick me up because a derailleur has gone haywire in the middle of nowhere and I can't climb with whatever gear it has decided to stick to.
I mostly ride alone and like being self-sufficient. I can't account for everything, but I'd like not to introduce additional things that can go irreparably wrong in my rides. It's extremely strange for a mechanical derailleur or shifter to break catastrophically unless you fall and hit them with something.
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I don't need nor want syncro shift. I can do that manually without thinking. When I change chainrings I mostly always shift the RD to compensate and it's not a big deal. At least for someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time.
BTW, I see lots of people around riding with half-step triples
BTW, I see lots of people around riding with half-step triples
As for half-step triples, you won't see any modern ones until it becomes a thing.
And it will, sure as maths, buddy. It's the last bit of low-hanging efficiency fruit to be had. How long do you reckon they can keep adding cogs to flog a new feature?
#68
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Syncro is the bomb. It just makes sense to outsource such a thing to a microcontroller, no question.
As for half-step triples, you won't see any modern ones until it becomes a thing.
And it will, sure as maths, buddy. It's the last bit of low-hanging efficiency fruit to be had. How long do you reckon they can keep adding cogs to flog a new feature?
As for half-step triples, you won't see any modern ones until it becomes a thing.
And it will, sure as maths, buddy. It's the last bit of low-hanging efficiency fruit to be had. How long do you reckon they can keep adding cogs to flog a new feature?
I'll keep waiting for half-step triples which, by the way, could also be done mechanically if they became a thing. Let me doubt though that manufacturers are going to introduce a system that needs more parts and is more complex. Especially considering that the target audience has already gone 1x on MTBs and seems incapable of managing two shifters at once on a road bike.
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Electronic gearing is pretty cool, really.
It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
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SRAM R&D has had well over a decade to figure out how to make hydraulic brakes work well in 110F heat(unsuccessful), so I have little faith in their problem solving abilities.
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Electronic gearing is pretty cool, really.
It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
It's not cool enough for me to justify the price premium except on a TT bike where being able to shift from both positions is just big and really worth it. I'll be probably getting it when it filters down to 105 & Tiagra level instead of being a premium feature. While mechanical does have a few advantages especially for the mechanically savvy user, the "it just works" functionality of electronic is more valuable for the vast majority of people. Predictably, the future is electronic shifting with only the really cheap stuff being mechanical.
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Just sayin, Yaw is a sweet innovation. It's one of those things that seem incredibly obvious in hindsight; could've happened in the friction era. Oh, and SRAM was smart to use way more cable pull than Shimano on the back, because a little more shift effort is a pretty good trade for better signal to noise, finer adjustment and no frayed cables.
But do I think they can design a FD cage as well as Shimano? No way. Shimano came out with Hyperglide 30-odd years ago; they're way in front overall.
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#74
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Looking at the long-term, I fully expect electronic to complete replace mechanical in a few years, except for Campagnolo. An electronic derailleur consists of a $5 servo motor and $2 microprocessor, and some buttons. All the complicated stuff is done in software. I expect Shimano can produce a Di2 groupset at lower cost than an equivalent mechanical version.
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I can mod SRAM/Avid hydraulic brakes to allow them to function properly, why not SRAM?